# Updates on Max's Health



## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Max is off to the vet tomorrow to be tested for French molt. I've done my reading (both here and via Google). Background: Max has been having lots of problems with his molt. At first he broke blood feathers (and I took care to stop the bleeding) ok, his wings were cut to short he doesn't fly very well. Then the next two feathers he grew in fell out, I want to say with at least the one I saw, he was flapping his wings but not flying and crashing, the other I never found where it fell out other than it was gone. Now I am really hoping the two he is growing in now will be ok but...
So we see the vet tomorrow. Nothing is confirmed yet but I am suspicious to TalkBudgie folk, talk at me about French molt in a pet (not intended to breed) budgie.
Two notes, he does live with Kiger. The vast majority of the time they get along in their large cage, they do have their moments when they want the other's food (they have their own separate dishes...) but those moments happen and they move on. No chasing, no bulling, just one not listening to the other when they don't want that one to be there at that moment. The other thing is I have read into French molt, its not a death sentence( at least with an adult bird) but I'm not sure what to expect past that.
Talk at me about this while I wait to hear from the vet.


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## aluz (Jul 24, 2011)

There are varying degrees of French moult and depending on the level of severity, budgies can lead perfectly normal lives. 
With the proper diet specific for the case, it's possible to improve the feather condition and to keep it under control.

Best of luck at the vets.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Please take the time to review the information in this thread.

http://talkbudgies.com/articles-bud...french-molt-diagnosis-prevention-control.html

Many people have/had budgies with french molt that have lived happy and active lives. 
The budgie needs to be kept warm enough and fed a very healthy diet to help keep up their immune system. 
Using probiotics for a budgie with French Molt is recommended.

We'll be interested t hear what the vet has to say.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Thank you both for the replies.
So I brought Max in today along with the three feathers I have that were new and he lost. One that concerned her was a feather that came out with the pulp. So after she examined a very unhappy budgie she took a blood sample to test for Polyoma (virus?) and Beak & Feather Circovirus. I wont hear about the results until early next week.

In the meantime something I worry about is that he is not keeping his feathers because of something I've done. Both birds are treated to "spa time" where they are in the bathroom while I take a shower or I run a hot shower so they can enjoy the humidity, but the rest of my living space is not kept humid. (I want to get a humidifier but I lean towards a warm air humidifier but there is the concern about the heating elements releasing fumes like nonstick pans will) Max's wings were cut really short, he has not been able to fly since I got him and on occasion he will try to but knowing how dangerous that is for him he hasn't been given an opportunity to outside of the cage. Still given the chance he will try to fly and I know from experience that is a really good way for him to break his new feathers. I feel horribly for that whole thing. I've learned my lesson and I just want to help him get better now and move on.

Ether way Its a learning experience. It might be a hard one but one that I need to have happen all the same. I just want to Max to be ok.


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## RavensGryf (May 8, 2015)

I'm so sorry you're going through this worry with Max right now. Waiting is the worst . Crossing fingers that it is just something more benign than a viral disease. :hug:

About the warm humidifier, (I don't use one, but I do use a space heater which blows like a fan) - chances are, a newer machine from most any brand is not going to use PTFE in their heating elements. Call the manufacturer for details, and they should be able to tell you what the components were made with/coated with. I did this with my new Black and Decker mini oven.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Using a warm mist humidifier in the room where your budgies are housed is an excellent idea. 
I use one and it helps both with respiration as well as feather condition. 
The new ones are quite safe.

I wish your little Max all the best and will be looking forward to an update once you have his test results back from your Avian Vet.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.*


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about Max's feather loss :hug: 

However, I admire all you're doing for him and agree that even if it is French moult, I know he will have a wonderful life with you and Kiger. 

I look forward to hearing about the results! :fingerx:


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Thank you everyone.
FaeryBee, do you recommend any particular model/brand of warm mist humidifier?


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

So I got a warm mist humidifier. Yay. But I have another worry. Boo.
Max has a thing about adjusting his crop. I have noticed a correlation between that and him starting to preen but not every time. Sometimes I will look over and see him doing it with nothing else going on as far as I can tell. Now my first worry is Mr. Max has been busted for picking at sisal ropes a while ago. He has since stopped doing that. He doesn't have issues eating or pooping, he has yet to vomit up anything...the vet did give him a clean bill of health...but I got the same thing with Kiger multiple times until he got really sick with GYI.
I intend to talk to the vet (again) about it when I hear from them Monday, but I wonder if anyone can talk me down a bit. IF it was an obstruction how would one tell? I'm watching for GYI as well since that was one of the off things Kiger did before he got really sick...
OR could this be nothing out of the norm and I am just on super high alert mode and need to calm down?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Your Avian Vet would need to do X-rays to determine if Max has a crop impaction if you are really concerned about that.

When was Max last at the vet? 
Continual adjusting of the crop can be an indication of a crop infection. 
If Max only adjusted his cop occasionally, then there is generally no reason to be overly concerned.

With regard to AGY, you can start Max on a protocol of Sodium Benzoate as a preventative measure. 
I use it for my birds and it helps tremendously.

http://talkbudgies.com/articles-bud...orhabdus-budgerigars-avian-gastric-yeast.html

Are you giving Max a probiotic on a regular basis?
AviBios Probiotics*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Last Tuesday when he had his feathers looked, a general exam, and the blood draw and such for the feather diseases. He had not been adjusting his crop at least when I've been home so I didn't think to ask. Then he started up again yesterday where I think I saw him doing it a total of 4 separate time that day, once or twice per time...
I am kind of suspicious of AGY since I remember watching Kiger repeatedly adjusting is crop at a time. That was not long before he got his diagnosis for AGY. Max isn't adjusting THAT much but its still a bit concerning...
Edit: I got the things! Would any of what you recommend not go well with ACV?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*When I'm doing the Sodium Benzoate, I don't use the ACV during that 30 day period. 
When the 30 day regimen is completed, then you can start up with the ACV again.

The pro-biotic (Avi-Bios) can be used on Max's food during the 30 day regimen of Sodium Benzoate in his water.

*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

If my memory is correct the sodium benzonate woud be beneficial to both birds correct? (this is from back when Kiger had AGY) however I am guessing is probably strongly recommended that I separate the two even if Kiger could have already been re-infected right?
IF I would make the probably less intelligent decision to keep them together would the probiotic be an issue since Kiger likes to eat Max's food and Max eats Kiger's food when the other is not looking?
Some random backstory with this as well: Kiger at the end of his AGY medicine round had the deep look at his fecal to be sure he was AGY clear. Max didn't get the more expensive test but they did do a regular fecal and for both birds they came back negative. Now I think the regular can give false negatives. 
SO my one other question/comment/concern is: Even if I am over reacting and Max is just being...wierd the sodium benzondie and probiotic would still be productive?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Even if both birds are clear of AGY, the use of the Sodium Benzoate is a good measure to take as a preventative.

My birds are not currently afflicted with AGY (knock wood) and I give them a 30 day regimen of Sodium Benzoate about 3 times per year as a preventative measure. 

The pro-biotics will be beneficial to both Max and Kiger to keep their digestive systems working optimally.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Good to know. I will start their regime as soon as I get everything in the mail. As of this morning we are still waiting to hear from the vet. 
In the meantime here is an old picture of Kiger and Max hanging out.


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## Niamhf (Dec 17, 2013)

Best of luck with the test results for your beautiful budgies.


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

I also hope that the test results come back negative!

(Which would be a positive outcome )


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'll be looking forward to your update after you speak with the vet.

You and your birds are in my prayers. :hug:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Hello all!
I got a voicemail from the vet last night. Max's tests came back negative! Yay. 
I intend to call her today to go over where we go from here. Max hasn't lost his current feathers but they seem to take a lot longer to grow compared to Kiger. I'm wondering if that's a Max thing/normal (both are the outer wing tip feathers so they are longer...) I just never noticed with Kiger because he only has a slight wing clip(can fly but keeps him out of trouble). 
For now I think we are going to wait and see if he keeps these two. If he doesn't then It sounds like she would want to do a culture or cytology/culture to rule out feather folliculitis.
SO. I have a warm mist humidifier on the way (its from crane) Nether boy is keen on bathing but I do try to sprits them once a day. I also try to give them 'spa time' in the bathroom once a day. Max's diet is mainly pellets some quality seed mix, and maybe veggies (kiger goes for the veggies more then Max) but he will eat sprouts when offered.
What else can I do to help the little dude? 
I got the probiotic and sodium benzonate yesterday and started sprinkling the probiotic on their food and I'm not 100% sure how to go about using the sodium benzonate...just fill a liter bottle with water and add 1/4 tsp to that (if I read the link from the article here about it right)?
Also FaeryBee, I was wondering since we know its not French molt if I should change the thread title to something more generic about Max's health...I don't know, PM me if you want.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Great news that Max's test for AGY came back negative!! :jumping: :jumping: :clap: :clap:

Big sign of relief! 

When I use the sodium benzoate, I mix it fresh each time I change the water in the cage (a couple of times per day)
I use 1/8 teaspoon to ~ 10 oz of water. Let it sit for a couple of minutes and then it will dissolve easily when you stir it.

Giving Max sprouts daily is a good practice, just don't leave them in the cage too long as they may spoil.

I'm sure you are already doing so, but keeping the cage clean and the water dishes clean goes a long way toward preventing fungal problems.

I'll be looking forward to how things progress with Max's feathers.

Best wishes!

Oh - if you want the title of the thread to be something other than what I changed it to - just let me know.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

The tests were for French molt and beak and feather disease. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Max has the two separate concerns that I'm trying to tackle. I intend to bring up my concerns about AGY to the vet when I hear back from her. The crop adjusting isn't everyday as I've noticed. However I remember one of the weird things that happened with Kigs before he got really sick was the random crop adjustment out of the blue, for three or more times in a row, so I remain suspicious. Still I am covering my bases and using the sodium benzonide and probiotic with both birds.
On a happy note: Max, who does do something akin to the happy dance and normally not the full head bob/singing loudly/hopping around/beak tapping dance (that's Kiger). Anyway so this morning I saw him doing the whole happy dance, it was so stinking cute to see him head bob the same way Kiger does. I guess he was feeling good this morning  
Anyway I will keep everyone up to date on Max's health as we hopefully figure out what is going on (if anything) with the little dude.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Sorry for my confusion regarding the test results.
It is great that the tests came back negative for French Molt.

Your choice to use the Sodium Benzoate and Probiotic is very wise. :2thumbs:

I bet little Max's "happy dance" was adorable to watch. :001_wub:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

OK! Finally after playing phone tag all day the vet and I finally got to talk. It is strange that Max's wings take so long to grow in. I almost want to say we are heading into week three with these two. I haven't kept the best track but it has been at least two weeks. That is weird. It could still be a bunch of different things, the easiest thing to rule out is diet. So Max (and Kiger the lucky little bird) get to switch from Harrison adult life time to high potency. I already watch weights but I'm going to go back to being more diligent (lately its been every other day or so). My main concern is they don't take to the new pellets well (shouldn't but its possible) and Kiger putting on weight. If anyone is curious Max is right around 33 grams and Kiger is roughly 26 grams. They varies slightly from day to day.

with his crop adjusting thing. Basically I'm going to keep monitoring him. Watching weights, keep an eye on droppings and obviously go strait to the vet if he starts vomiting. I intend to keep doing what I'm doing so that's where that is at.
I touch base with her in two weeks unless he ether gets worse or does amazingly well. Then it sounds like we would look more closely at his feather follicles, do a culture and see what else could be going on. 
Is it ok if I post progress pictures? I am afraid for one reason or another it wouldn't be cool beans...


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*It's fine to post progress pictures and will make it easier for us to see what is actually taking place. *


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

ok, so this is where Max is at. You can kinda see the comparison between Max and Kiger. Where Max has only the two flight feathers Kiger has already grown back some of the flight feathers that were clipped a few weeks ago. Max has had the longest flight feather (#10 on each wing if I am remembering how they are numbered correctly) and 9 is just starting to peek out from under his wing. I was so excited when I saw the new feathers starting to show last night! I call them his babby feathers (its just a cute name for them.)


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Are you giving little Max any egg food?
The protein in the egg will help the feathers growth.
I use hard boiled egg mashed in with cooked quinoa (rinse the quinoa very well before cooking) and mix in some flax seed.

I always give this to my birds during their molts.

You may also want to consider adding Featherific as well as the other supplements I've recommended. I haven't used it but I do trust the Avitech Products

Featheriffic! Supplement*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

I will look into that.
So its late at night and I can't get the idea out of my mind that AGY is a thing here. Here is my hypothesis, I'm looking for feedback on it. Is it even possible? Is there anything I am missing that would change things? Other thoughts?
SO...
Max does have stress lines on the new feather(s). Those can be caused by several different things; poor diet, humidity, stress (those are what I can think of off hand that the vet mentioned). 
All three of what I've listed are technically possible. I don't think stress would be the cause...in the sense of he isn't as visibly stressed by things as Kiger is (the one who use to start panting if he was in a different, not new, room of the living space) Max actually sings during car rides. 
Humidity is a solid possibility, its winter. I've noticed how dry it is getting lately now that its actually getting cold. However Kiger lives with Max, and is growing in his flight feathers as well with no issues. 
That leaves diet. Now Max does eat relatively healthy. Not so big on veggies, loves his sprouts and eats his pellets like a good little bird. However, and here is where I am asking for outside input the most... IF he had AGY that would effect his ability to take in nutrients, the yeast messes with the flora of the digestive track making it more difficult for them to properly digest their food. That is why during both of Kiger's episodes with AGY before he got treated he had undigested seeds in his droppings. So if he was not getting the proper nutrition in his system that would inhibit his ability to grow in new feathers... Which would make some semblance of sense since Kiger is having absolutely no problem growing in feathers, and they live together. 
So I hesitate to bug my vet AGAIN about Max but if its a viable possibility I might. 
I will admit, its late, I'm kinda tired. I probably rambled but I wanted some feedback on this idea.
So talk at me about this. Is it even a possibility since the only other possible symptoms Max has is the crop adjusting thing. Maybe weird poops but nothing that is on a consistent basis...he is going into the separate cage tomorrow so I can watch them.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*It's understandable you are concerned about the possibility of Max having AGY given the history with Kiger.

You've already had Max in to the Avian Vet for a checkup and were told at that time his test was negative so my thoughts are that you should give the Sodium Benzoate a chance.

Don't try to overthink the situation too much or you are going to make yourself crazy.

If you are still feeling unsettled about it in a few days time, then reconsider your decision at that point. :hug:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Thanks Faery Bee. I need to take a deep breath and calm down. Their isn't enough evidence to cause enough worry. 
Could I simply serve Max mashed up egg without quinoa? Maybe the flax seeds but I'd have to do some hunting around my local stores. If I am hesitant about feeding him egg is there another option? 
I have been considering getting feathreific since he started growing the two new feathers he still has. However when I inquired about it to the store owner, I was told its more for birds that pick rather then birds with difficult molts. In turn I also read to get the aviacalm with it, again because typically its used with birds who pick feathers. Even though the package says its for both molting and picking.

From a more experienced perspective then my own, would giving him the featherific supplement anyway have any negative repercussions, since it puts the feather growing process into hyper drive (from what I read about it). Assuming I do all the things I need to do to help him with the new feathers. Do you think diet or health concerns would cause problems?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I believe the Featherific without the Avi-calm would be just fine and I do not believe either diet or health concerns would be a problem with regard to using it.

You can give your budgies egg by itself without quinoa or flax seed if you prefer to do so. You can also try mixing some finely chopped vegetables in the egg if you wish.

The reason I suggested the combination I did is because those foods are high in protein which gives the necessary energy for feather growth.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

ok  now for the fun challenge of convincing him the egg mash is food. It shouldn't be nearly as much of a challenge as it was to convince them that veggies and pellets were the most amazing things since seeds.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Try sprinkling some millet seeds on top of the egg mash (if they like that) as well as mixing some into the egg.
That might encourage them to try it. :wink1:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Max lost one of the new long wing tip feathers today. Now I am already beating myself up so I ask to not be scolded. I was checking the underside of his wings as the vet suggested (restrain and gently extend the wing) to see how the feathers are growing in. Max is rather wiggly but I have never had issues in the past. All of a sudden he screams, i set him down on my lap right away. He flicks his wing and the feather falls to the floor. No blood and he is chilling on a perch singing along with the radio now. I still feel terrible about the whole ordeal. 
The question/concern that comes to mind is...maybe this is just a miss-guided perception but his feathers seem to be so fragile. Could that be because of a lack of protein, or something else? Is that normal?
I am going to make egg food today, the humidifier is somewhere in the black hole of giftmus season online orders, the featherific is in the mail. There is also two more feathers showing up on his other wing. Yay, at least there is some progress. 
I feel like a horrible budgie mommy, I just want my little buddy to be better and be able to fly and keep up with Kiger...
Anyway its nap time I guess for the two boys. I'm off to go make some egg food.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Please don't beat yourself up. You only did what your Avian Vet suggested. I know you certainly didn't mean for Max's new feather to fall out. :hug:

Forgive me if you've already told me, but has your Avian Vet tested Max for Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (Circovirus)?

Skin and Feather Disorders of Pet Birds: Disorders and Diseases of Birds: The Merck Manual for Pet Health

In reading the information from the Merck Vet Manual, it seems as though Max may be exhibiting symptoms.

To answer your question, nutritional deficiencies can definitely affect the feathers.

Vitamins for Bird's Feathers*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Yeah he was tested for both beak and feather and french molt, both were negative.
I gave them egg food today and while a fair amount ended up on the bottom of the cage it looks like they both did eat some. 
So I'm waiting on the featherific and high potency pellets now. The humidifier appeared out of the black hole of holiday shipping(yay). My concern now turns toward the diet's reaction for Kiger. If I keep them together Kiger will be on the same diet as Max. Is that safe? I know the higher protein intake (the eggs) is harmful to their kidneys in the long run, but what about the featherific supplement? Kiger is growing in feathers as well, but he does not have Max's issues of said feathers not keeping. Could the supplement be detrimental to Kiger then, or neutral? Would it be safer to separate the two and feed each their own diet?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*It's a relief to know that Max's tests for both Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (Circovirus) and French Molt were negative.

You definitely don't want to overload Kiger with protein.
Kiger shouldn't get egg food more than once or twice a week.

I'd like to see the ingredients of the Featherific once you receive it to determine what the impact on a budgie not actually needing that supplement might be.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

I think its best during the day to separate the two so Kiger doesn't sneak any bites from Max's food, egg food or otherwise. The game plan is looking like Max and Kig's spend the day apart and then in the evenings after dinner they can spend the night together. Would there be any issues with that?
I will still get those ingredients to you FaeryBee.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


sdodo said:



I think its best during the day to separate the two so Kiger doesn't sneak any bites from Max's food, egg food or otherwise. The game plan is looking like Max and Kig's spend the day apart and then in the evenings after dinner they can spend the night together. Would there be any issues with that?
I will still get those ingredients to you FaeryBee.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a fine plan to me. *


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

how frequently do you give egg food for molting birds?
Edit to add a question: I'm looking at Sprouts peoples website. I got their little bird sprouts kit before. I'm considering getting something else this time. Any recommendations?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*When my birds are molting I give them egg food every other day.

This is the sprouter I have and I like it very much.

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Tray-Ki...id=1481063147&sr=8-2&keywords=4+tray+sprouter*


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## lbeckman (Jun 26, 2016)

Here are the ingredients for Featheriffic (I would have preferred a list that included amounts but haven't found it): Corn meal, calcium phosphate, flaxseed meal, wheat germ oil, iron protein ate, calcium carbonate, l-lysine, choline chloride, di-methionine, potassium chloride, cane molasses, di-alpha to copheryl (vitamin E), magnesium oxide, sodium chloride, vitamin B12, vitamin C, I-aspartic acid, biotin, zinc protein ate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, l-arginine, riboflavin (vitamin B2), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), inositol, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), d-calcium pantothenate, soy lecithin, para-amino benzoic acid, papaya, pancreatic, pepsin, aspergillus Niger, beta-carotene, niacin amide, niacin, vitamin A, acetate, vitamin D3, folic acid, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol, vitamin K, cobalt carbonate, potassium iodide, sodium selenite.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

FareyBee: What seed mixes should I look for/ should avoid? I'm considering just using their seed mix...


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Another question/comment/concern.
It appears our main living space where the birds reside is to much for the humidifier to handle. It was running since 7 this morning and we were at 35% humidity. The vet I think was aiming for 50% (correct me if I'm wrong on that one). 
My question. Could I run the humidifier in a smaller room (bedroom) and keep the birds in there over night? Would that still be beneficial, even if it means part of the day they spend in the dryer part of the apartment?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Can you set the humidifier up closer to their cage?

If not, then yes - moving them into a smaller room overnight with the humidifer will help. Using it during the day in an area as close to the cage as possible will also be beneficial.*


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


lbeckman said:



Here are the ingredients for Featheriffic (I would have preferred a list that included amounts but haven't found it): Corn meal, calcium phosphate, flaxseed meal, wheat germ oil, iron protein ate, calcium carbonate, l-lysine, choline chloride, di-methionine, potassium chloride, cane molasses, di-alpha to copheryl (vitamin E), magnesium oxide, sodium chloride, vitamin B12, vitamin C, I-aspartic acid, biotin, zinc protein ate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, l-arginine, riboflavin (vitamin B2), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), inositol, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), d-calcium pantothenate, soy lecithin, para-amino benzoic acid, papaya, pancreatic, pepsin, aspergillus Niger, beta-carotene, niacin amide, niacin, vitamin A, acetate, vitamin D3, folic acid, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol, vitamin K, cobalt carbonate, potassium iodide, sodium selenite.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that listing, Leah!
I'll try to locate one with the percentages



sdodo said:



FareyBee: What seed mixes should I look for/ should avoid? I'm considering just using their seed mix...

Click to expand...

If your current seed mix does not contain pellets, by all means you can try sprouting it. :thumbsup:

Here is a link to some other choices if you are interested:
https://sproutpeople.org/just-for-pets/bird-seed-mixes/*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

yeah, unfortunately where the humidifier is at is as close as I can put it safely without worrying bout things warping or melting. I have a total of three cages so I can repurpose the smallest of the three as the bed time cage and have them stay in my bedroom. That way the humans and get to benefit from the humidifier as well!  
I'm going to try and get a new picture of Max. I'm worried about the other feather #10 (left wing. Right was the one that he lost last week). To me it looks like its going to fall out but I will post a picture soon to get a second opinion.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Good news: Max is in the last phase of going to his new diet today. Every other day of egg food, pellets are Harrison high potency superfine pellets and featherific sprinkled on his food.

bad news. He lost another feather this morning. It was the right wing again. I think he might have had already injured the feather before hand but when he tried to follow Kiger this morning it broke completely. He wasn't bleeding (thank the stars for that). Poor little dude is a bit lopsided now.

So pictures...if photobucket will play...
So here is the right wing (he was not a happy camper and did not want to play along so this is the best I could get):

and the left wing:

And a Mr. Additude yesterday:


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Poor little tyke -- I'm sorry Max lost another flight feather today. 

Hopefully his new diet will help show a substantial improvement in the feather strength and condition in the next couple of months. :fingerx:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Max update:
I just got done talking with the vet. She wants to do a cytology of his right wing. We compromised to I want one more week to watch him with the new diet. If he looses another feather or is still the same I will bring him in to get the right wing looked at. 

He does have a new feather growing in on the right wing. I can just see it peaking out from under his secondary(I need to double check on if that is what they are called. If the primary feathers are the first line of feathers these are the second up on the wing...) feathers. The vet did recommend not using the featherific to avoid overdoing the vitamin intake since he does eat his high potency pellets. 
So we will see where he is at in a week. I feel mixed about if it would make any difference but with the temps staying between single digests and negatives (happy winter from Minnesota!) I don't want to take him to the vet unless all parties involved feel It would benefit him. Then I would do what needs to be done. One good thing is he does really well on car rides (unlike nervous little Kiger).
A side thought/question. With the cold temps and the glories of apartment living ( I am dependent on management to turn up the boilers). How should I handle sprits baths? I am skittish of space heaters (like I was with warm mist humidifiers for the same reasons) and I am under the impression that birds much like humans don't do being cold and wet at the same time. The occasions I have spritz them was in the bathroom after running a hot shower...do that? Something else? Ideas?
Thanks


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I can understand the vet's concern about the Featherific since Max is eating a high potency pellet diet.

I think doing the spritz bath only in the bathroom when the air is warm and moist from a hot shower would be best. Then I would wait to take them into the other part of the apartment until they are dry.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

update!
Max has a new #10 flight feather coming in on the right wing!!! Fingers crossed he keeps it and all stays well.
Another exciting thing is they have taken to spritz baths at last! I gave them their bath this morning and was treated to the absolutely adorable sight of Max and Kiger doing that bathing bird dance. I was resigned to they would begrudgingly tolerate spritz baths and that would be how things were. Guess not. Max and Kiger have surprised me again.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Update!
Max is doing well. On his right wing he has a new #10 growing in, 8 is just starting to show from under his feathers on the same side. On his left side my only concern is the #10 there hangs low at times. Like Kiger's neatly meet above the base of his tail (the normal way the long flight feather sits) Sometimes on Max that feather is up and neat other times it hangs low enough I can see the white coloration that's closer to the quill. To me it looks like its about to fall out but its been like that for some time and is still in place so...we will see.
Max does see the vet next week Saturday for a check-up. A kind of lets see where he is at and if we keep doing what we are doing or change things up.
So in a nutshell we have not lost any more feathers, we are growing in a few new flight feathers and all seems to be well! Yay.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*That's great news! 
I hope Max will be able to continue to grow and keep his feathers intact. :fingerx:

I'll be looking forward to your update after you see the vet.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

update:
So we saw the vet this weekend. Things looked good to the vet, the concern the vet had is Max is getting fat. 
Of course one of his new feathers came out after we got home >.< It was one that had grown in and no longer a blood feather but...its difficult to describe, Its like he might have damaged the feather earlier in its growth and the act of flying caused an already weaken feather to break... if that makes sense? I need to call the vet and run that past her, and tell her the one broke.
Max has otherwise kept all the other 'new' primary feathers. He even grew back # 10 and 8(?) on the left wing before we saw the vet. There was another farther up that grew in as well. So there is progress.
So I find myself in a bit of a predicament and I'm looking for ideas on what to do. I am on the fence about weights. Kiger has been sitting around 27g (normally 25g) Max is around 33g-34g (normally 31g). Max does have fat deposits on his lower abdomen between his legs. I don't know about Kiger. The vet feels Max needs to loose weight, I feel Kiger does as well in that case. On the flip side I want to keep helping Max with his molt (we are on month 3 or 4 now...). Currently they are caged together and share all the foods. I did back off on the egg mash. Right now diet wise they get a tablespoon each of adult life time pellets, roughly a teaspoon of seeds each and this week they get sprouts in the A.M and a nub or two of millet during training in the evening. Kiger is more inclined to fly around on a whim but both are content to find a place to hang out when out of the cage and sing, or will fly back to their cage. Its not possible for them to be out during the day during the week, but I try to let them out in the evenings for a bit.
In your shoes talk budgie peeps how would you go forward in improving the boy's health?


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

mini side update:
Vet is suspicious of diet with feather breaks. Sooo we will add red palm oil supplement to his diet to cover the potential for that to be a deficiency as well. 
My jumbled mess of thoughts and ideas: Looking at diet alone...I would think that even if he had a deficiency in all the things before I got him (he was a stray) he would be back on track now four months later. Am I off track with that mind set?
Anyway I will probably get the red palm oil Wednesday when I can ether get to my nearby parrot store or get out to the vet.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I would be reluctant to oppose what your Avian Vet has recommended with regard to Max's diet if Max has fat deposits on his lower abdomen.
What you indicate you are feeding Max and Kiger sounds like a very healthy diet to me.

Did you ask your A. vet about the fat content in the Red Palm Oil? 
Is the oil similar to Coconut Oil? I've heard that Coconut Oil is a good supplement for many birds.

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Here's the thing with the pellets, she went back on what she said. When I spoke with her she was ok with him staying on adult life time as long as he is getting exercise. At least that is what I understood when I spoke with her last. 

I didn't know about Red palm oil's fat content until after I started reading up about it online. From what I gathered you need to be careful using it with birds who have a pre-existing tendency toward gaining weight, one sight used Amazons as an example. The vet is asking me to mix 15ml of the RPO with 1lb of pellets...I will probably give her a call tomorrow on how much of that mix should he get, weight concerns and all.

I admittedly want to bang my head against a wall with this all. I just want him to be healthy and happy with nice feathers that don't break for no apparent reason. I think the one thing I know I can help is his weight. The how's might be a bit tricky but I've had success just having them perch on my hand, walk away from the cage turn and let them fly back to it. Rinse and repeat a few times for exercise. If I can get weights under control then there is less need to worry about supplements adding to that weight...I'd think at least.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I do like your method of helping them get additional exercise!
Please let me know what you find out from the A.V. regarding the palm oil. I'll be interested to know.*


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## JRS (Sep 3, 2016)

sdodo said:


> ....I think the one thing I know I can help is his weight. The how's might be a bit tricky but I've had success just having them perch on my hand, walk away from the cage turn and let them fly back to it. Rinse and repeat a few times for exercise.....


Could gradually introducing some homemade foraging ideas for their seeds help to add a bit of excercise?


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## Birdmanca (Jan 24, 2008)

I hope the vet visit turns out well for you.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

update:
So I heard back today from the vet about the RPO. Basically I add the 15ml to 1lb of pellets and give that to the boys instead of their normal dry pellets. Since RPO fats are "good fats" they are not worried about further weight gain from the RPO. 
I am going to go out and get pick some up from the vet office today and ask how long I need to keep the boys (mainly Max) on this regime before going back to our normal diet.

Stupid question time. Are colored Dixie cups bird safe? I want to use them to hide treats in to encourage foraging but I'm not sure about using Dixie cups, and I don't have a free egg carton at this time to use...I don't know where to start/go with foraging toys...creativity in regards to bird toys is not my forte. Any ideas?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Make sure the dixie cups are only paper and not wax coated.
You don't want to use anything with a wax coating.

Some easy foraging toys are:

1. Fold a piece of paper around a few seeds, pellets, or whatever and hang it from the top or side of the cage with sisal.

2. If you have large link plastic chain, wrap a few seeds in some paper and thread the papers through the links

3. plain uncolored small boxes can be used to hide food

4. Finger Traps -- available at Dollar Stores -- put a bit of food inside, tie the ends shut with raffia or sisal and hang

5. Make budgie burritos using kale or leaf lettuce to wrap some seed or food*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

ok I will keep that in mind. The vet will be giving me a call in about a week to check in on Max. So now they are on RPO coated pellets and I am going to work on foraging toys.
One concern is Max isn't as food motivated as Kiger is. Where Kiger will do anything for millet Max wont. He will take treats during clicker training but I haven't seen him go for any foraging toys I've tied in the past...all were store bought. I probably will just need to try all the things and see what works.
will update when I hear from the vet next!


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

update:
Max lost #9 on his right wing over the weekend. I noticed it looked out of place Friday night after letting him fly around for a bit. He hadn't done anything that I'd think would have caused the damage aside from flying around in loops. He was able to get it back in place on his own and I left it as it was. The next evening I noticed it was gone. -sigh- after a long search I found it by his bedtime cage. It had broken farther down the quill(?) but not so far that there was pulp. If their is pulp, like he had one time before we saw the vet, then we'd be back to the vet. As is I'm just keeping to diet. 

A question/thought/idea: IF Max was deficient in feather strength boosting thing X before/during his time in the 'wild' how long on a proper diet would it take before one would see visible results?
I'm leaning towards it is already showing results. Max is keeping the majority of his feathers. As of today he has on his left wing (from wing tip toward the body) #10,9, 6(maybe its 5). On the right wing he has #10, and somewhere between 7 and 5, I cant recall off hand.
My point is He is keeping the majority of his feathers and that's what we want! Its tough to see him loose the one's he has lost. I know growing them in is a draining process for him but as long as I keep doing all I can to give him the best environment to grow in new feathers hopefully this molt will eventually FINALLY come to an end.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

kinda sorta update.
Briefly spoke with the vet this morning. We are continuing with the RPO. Funny thing is both boys love the stuff. The mix was 15 milliliters (I think...) to 1lb of pellets. So not all the pellets are coated with it but the ones that are...well they are real popular.

-sigh- Its all good news, but part of me is worrying. Max was quieter this weekend then I'm use to. He had perked up this morning. There were no other signs something might be off. Boyfriend (who admittedly sees them more then I do...) reminds me that this is normal for Max. He is the stoic big brother, who is normally to cool to play with any silly toy aside from the one he currently is...fond of (nothing crazy, just lots of singing, tapping and the such). If he is feeling really good he will go talk/tap and eye pin at Kiger. He was that this morning.
I don't know what to think. I'm watching him, boyfriend watches them both, and he has been given a clean bill of health aside from his weight when we last saw the vet two weeks ago.


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Well...Max had an incident involving a wall and him freaking out and flying into said wall...and then he was acting wired for a short time after.

So...off to the vet we went as soon as they were open and I could get an appointment. Of course by that point he was back to normal. Eating, preening, chatting...normal Max stuff. I still wanted to be sure he was ok since while we've had incidents involving walls before (its rare but both have had their moments) their behavior had never changed, even briefly.

Vet looked him over, felt him up, and watched him fly and looked him over some more. After all was said and done she didn't see anything wrong. He was probably just a bit stunned this time. She did say it was still good to bring him in.
We went home, he got back in his cage and I offered him some millet...I got the stink eye for several seconds before I guess he forgave me and began eating away at it.
From what I understand with concussions, what I was the most afraid of, if they are eating, not vomiting, have normal iris behavior and are coordinated in their flying then they are ok...still if they are acting off its always good to get things looked into.
Hopefully this is it and Max wont need to visit his least favorite person in the world for a while.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Sorry to hear about Max's mishap with the wall. 

I'm glad he's behaving fine now -- it sounds as though the vet is correct and Max didn't hurt himself too badly.

Hopefully, you won't need any additional vet visits anytime soon. :fingerx:

Best wishes!*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

So he broke #10 on his right wing. But he can still fly and all is otherwise well. I wanted to throw another idea out about what might be going on. So It is believed that this is all due to a nutrition deficiency, Vet says fatty acids, Google says Vitamin A. The pre-curser for Vitamin A and fatty acids are both found in RPO. 
Anyway, the vet and I did talk about his feathers. She brought up how some of his feathers are rigid. The two long tail feathers, both had broken back in October, but what is left of them are both rigid. By that I mean if he were to preen them, it is presumed they would not flex like they should if say Kiger preens his own long tail feathers. The same goes for his flight feathers, in particular the outer flight feathers (#10, and 9 in particular).
Here is the thought process, his previous nutritional deficiencies, he doesn't have enough of ether vitamin A or fatty acids (or both) and that is causing his feathers to grow in with less flex then what they need to remain intact. So...when he has a special and bumps into a thing while flying (but not crashing) his feathers are breaking instead of bending... its just an idea I wanted to throw out there. 
It could also be as simple as he doesn't have enough feathers on that wing to protect the one's that are there...
Or all of the above, or none of the above, Its just an idea that came to mind.

Ether way both boys are molting...yay.( Feathers, feathers everywhere!) Max lost a short tail feather at some point recently. I'm hoping he molts out his two clipped tail feathers so he can have a nice long tail once more. But I am worried that with the problems he's had so far if this will only add to it. I spotted a blood feather on Kiger's wing (#10 for him it looks like). I'm trying not to worry since he hasn't had the same issues as Max.
Fingers crossed that this is it with Mr. Max and loosing new feathers. Granted if this is all diet like we are thinking it is, it could be a bit before his feather growth problem is resolved.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm hoping you are correct and with the dietary supplements that over time Max's feathers will begin to grow in normally and will no longer be a problem for him. :fingerx:*


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