# What is going on? Please help



## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

Hello Talk Budgies,

Sorry that this is long but I want to make sure that everything that's happened is here. Please help...

My female flock of 2 (Kiwi 10 yrs & Nacho 6 yrs) are going through some illness...I never had any problems until a few months ago. I started buying seed mix from a local bird store I discovered, which was right around the time all the trouble began. This bag of seed mix had two maggots in it, that I only discovered after giving the food to my girls for a couple of weeks. I threw out the bag but couple of weeks later, I noticed that Kiwi was making clicking sounds when breathing, her vent was swollen and she was fluffed up a lot. Now let me say that this girl has never been sick, she outlived 2 other birds and I never had any issues with her.

As soon as I heard that clicking, I took both girls to the emergency vet. Kiwi was diagnosed with a bacterial infection and vet prescribed Clavamox. Nacho seemed fine except for a lump near her vent (she's a big girl that likes to eat) that has been there for a couple of years but the vet said to have it checked out by another vet that only sees birds. Few weeks go by, Kiwi is doing well after her rounds of Clavamox and back to her normal self. Then Nacho starts to vomit occasionally, like every two weeks, but she recovers well each time and goes back to her normal self. Then Kiwi had a vomiting accident once, which she also recovered from quickly. Meanwhile, I still went back to that bird store to get different food thinking it was just that one bag.

Eventually Nacho's vomiting got pretty bad. Poor thing couldn't eat or poop anything. I took Nacho to the avian vet that emergency vet recommended. Avian vet analyzed her crop, droppings and found a Staph infection in droppings, plus she lost a little weight but nothing too alarming since I changed their diet to pellets, frantically thinking its the seed diet that's making Nacho sick. Avian vet prescribed Enrofloxacin antibiotic (Baytril) and Meloxicam anti-inflammatory. We started meds but a couple of days later when Nacho started feeling better and eating again, she vomited and didn't poop for about 24 hours. I took her back to the avian vet, they did an x-ray and found that her liver is a bit larger than normal, plus she lost even more weight, from 51g to 34g. Avian vet recommended a very strict pellet diet with veggies and to encourage foraging. Nacho stopped vomiting and started pooping normal again but she's still really fluffed all the time and now I'm noticing that Kiwi is fluffed all the time too, it's not normal for her. I also noticed that they both eat like the world is ending and can't stop eating so I have to limit their portions.

Is this really caused by Staph or is something else going on? I just read about Canker (Trichomoniasis) and it kind of sounds like it. Avian vet didn't mention Canker and we're kind of taking it slow trying to figure out what's causing all this? Anyone have experience with it? Do you think that's what they might have? Is it treatable and what is the treatment? What should I do? I don't want to lose my girls.

I did throw out all the food I ever bought from that bird store and started ordering food online straight from the source. Never ever going there again. Even vet's tech said their food looks sketchy. I wish I knew and could prevent it all...


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*
Yana,

I'm very sorry to hear Kiwi and Nacho are both having such problems. 

Has your Avian Vet tested both birds for AGY? 
If not - I would have that done immediately.

http://talkbudgies.com/articles-budgie-disease-illness/314538-megabacteria-budgerigars.html

http://talkbudgies.com/articles-bud...orhabdus-budgerigars-avian-gastric-yeast.html

I'm wishing all the best for your little girls and will be looking forward to your update.

*


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

FaeryBee said:


> *
> Yana,
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear Kiwi and Nacho are both having such problems.
> ...


Yes, she said that would be the next step if antibiotic doesn't work. Thank you so much for your suggestion! Will get that done asap.


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## Budget baby (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi Yana, definitely get the crop swab and faecal test done as soon as possible for AGY.
Get some probiotics give these to both budgies in the food mix .
Make sure they are kept extra warm, clean perches, cage and dishes extremely well. With the dramatic weight loss, I would actually be offering egg and biscuit mix to help keep some condition on them if possible. I have an AGY budgie he is living completely normal and is interactive with the other two birds I have.
Please let us know how the Avian vet visit goes :hug::feedback:


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

Pretty boy said:


> Hi Yana, definitely get the crop swab and faecal test done as soon as possible for AGY.
> Get some probiotics give these to both budgies in the food mix .
> Make sure they are kept extra warm, clean perches, cage and dishes extremely well. With the dramatic weight loss, I would actually be offering egg and biscuit mix to help keep some condition on them if possible. I have an AGY budgie he is living completely normal and is interactive with the other two birds I have.
> Please let us know how the Avian vet visit goes :hug::feedback:


The vet is waiting on test results from lab but I'm pretty sure it's AGY because Nacho had it when I first got her and with diet changes I think it triggered but now she gave it to Kiwi. Thank you for your suggestions! I'm cleaning perches every day and their dishes between meals. What kind of probiotic is safe for them? And can you recommend a good biscuit mix?

Also, is it ok to put a little apple cider vinegar in their water in addition to probiotic or only do one or the other? Any other foods ok to help them fight it?

Thank you!

Well I just spoke to the vet and fecal results came back negative for AGY. I don't know what else to do here...

Nacho had psittacosis when I first got her, not AGY. For some reason I thought it was the same thing. Can psittacosis come back?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Yana,

AGY and psittacosis are not the same thing. Yes, psittacosis can be contracted more than once by a bird.

Sometimes fecal samples come back negative for AGY but the budgie actually has it and it doesn't show except during a necropsy.

Please read the article which is linked in the thread below:

http://talkbudgies.com/articles-bud...orhabdus-budgerigars-avian-gastric-yeast.html

I would suggest starting them on a course of Sodium Benzoate. I use Sodium Benzoate for all of my birds for a 30 day period about 3 times per year.

You can buy the product on-line through Amazon.com
This link shows the one I use: Sodium Benzoate

I start with about 1/8 tsp of Sodium Benzoate per 8 oz of water. Then after a week, increase the amount a little until you are up to 1/4 tsp per 8 oz. of water. I mix it fresh each time I change the water.

I do not use ACV when I'm using the Sodium Benzoate. After the 30 day period, you can give the budgies a rest from the treatment and use ACV in their water at that time.

With regard to pro-biotics, the one I use is Avi-Bios
https://www.amazon.com/Avitech-BIOS2-AviBios-Lactobacillus-Probiotic/dp/B0081RYWTY?th=1*


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

FaeryBee said:


> *Yana,
> 
> AGY and psittacosis are not the same thing. Yes, psittacosis can be contracted more than once by a bird.
> 
> ...


Thank you again Deborah! Just ordered Sodium Benzoate and probiotic. Do you think I should continue with antibiotic? I stopped giving it last night because I feel like it's not doing anything but contributing to the illness due to stress. Second guessing everything now...:sad:


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## Budget baby (Jan 1, 2013)

I can imagine the stress you are experiencing, As Deborah stated AGY often does not show up , did they do a crop wash as well as a fecal sample?
AGY also is more prominent when the weather is humid, stress will also bring it on. Do your budgies look like they are trying to adjust the crop more often? What is the vent area like, wet and no feathers?
I use Vetafarm PolyAid Probiotics I simply sprinkle the powder onto the seed mix.
Egg and Biscuit mix can be bought commercially or you can make your own.
http://talkbudgies.com/recipes-budgies/114058-egg-food-our-aviary-recipe-step-step.html


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


Crunchkin said:



Thank you again Deborah! Just ordered Sodium Benzoate and probiotic. Do you think I should continue with antibiotic? I stopped giving it last night because I feel like it's not doing anything but contributing to the illness due to stress. Second guessing everything now...:sad:

Click to expand...

Could you tell me which antibiotic was prescribed?
Amphoteracin B is generally the treatment of choice for budgies suspected of having AGY (in conjunction with the Sodium Benzoate)*


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

Pretty boy said:


> I can imagine the stress you are experiencing, As Deborah stated AGY often does not show up , did they do a crop wash as well as a fecal sample?
> AGY also is more prominent when the weather is humid, stress will also bring it on. Do your budgies look like they are trying to adjust the crop more often? What is the vent area like, wet and no feathers?
> I use Vetafarm PolyAid Probiotics I simply sprinkle the powder onto the seed mix.
> Egg and Biscuit mix can be bought commercially or you can make your own.
> http://talkbudgies.com/recipes-budgies/114058-egg-food-our-aviary-recipe-step-step.html


Vet did a crop lavage and it only showed a Staph infection. Their symptoms and unusual behaviors I noticed:
-eating all day, more than usual
-if not eating, sleeping or looking for more food
-fluffed all the time, cold to the touch feet
-droppings look normal but bigger in size and more often (both of their droppings look the same, usually their droppings look different from the others)
-occasionally wet droppings, sometimes get stuck to the vent, feathers around vent are wet
-not chirping
-not playing
-Nacho's beak is starting to look longer than usual
-Kiwi was moulting a week ago or losing feathers and then it stopped, but I'm not seeing new feathers yet

Thank you!


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

FaeryBee said:


> *
> 
> Could you tell me which antibiotic was prescribed?
> Amphoteracin B is generally the treatment of choice for budgies suspected of having AGY (in conjunction with the Sodium Benzoate)*


Nacho was prescribed Enrofloxacin, aka Baytril, along with Meloxicam (anti-inflammatory). We initially did 6 days of both of these, then Nacho vomited, so we stopped Baytril but continued with Meloxicam (vet's recommendation). 4 days later when I took Nacho back to the vet, they still saw Staph in her crop. Vet said to continue with Baytril and Meloxicam for a week. 3 days later, Nacho is still fluffed and seemed to be getting worse, in addition Kiwi started acting the same. I stopped both Baytril and Meloxicam because they seemed to add more stress without any relief. I called the vet and was told the Dr. will call me but I still haven't heard from them 2 days later.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Yana,

I would definitely start the Sodium Benzoate regimen and keep trying to reach your Avian Vet. :hug:*


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## sdodo (Jun 7, 2016)

Yana,
I am sorry you are going through this. I went through an AGY thing with my little guy Kiger two months ago and that was an ordeal getting a diagnosis. 
wishing the best for you.:hug:


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

*Update*

Well, I kept calling that vet to get treatment for AGY but she didn't call me back until 3 days later at the end of the day before they closed for 2 days.

So, I went to the bird shop that I know is good and clean, they told me many people went through the same thing with that vet and never got anywhere. The bird shop keeper recommended a different vet 40 minutes away that only sees birds. I booked an emergency appointment right away. They kept Kiwi & Nacho there all day observing and doing tests.

This vet called me with diagnosis that both girls have kidney problems due to pellets and leafy greens. It's causing them pain which explains why they're not active or vocal and fluffed. At the vet they fed them seeds and both girls perked up. Vet said she has seen many birds with AGY, so she knows what that looks like and my girls don't have it, nor do they have an infection. She also said that she's seeing more and more birds with kidney problems and told me to stay away from kale and spinach especially. Once in a while is OK but not too much. Of course, I've been feeding them leafy greens and pellets ever since Nacho started vomiting. Vet said first sign of kidney issues is vomiting. She prescribed Allopurinol in their water for 2 weeks to cleanse their kidneys. They're doing much better today and I'm keeping an eye on them. It's going to take about a month for their kidneys to recover, poor babies.

Who knew leafy greens can cause this? I didn't. Everywhere I read about budgie diet it says to feed many leafy greens. Vet said she had a lady that planted a bunch of kale in her backyard where chickens roamed free, a month later 3 chickens died of kidney failure.

Thank you everyone for all your responses and support! I'm so glad I came back here :green pied::green pied:

PS: Anyone in Oregon and Washington area that needs a vet, I recommend the only bird vet Dr. Lintner in Lake Oswego, OR


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Yana,

I'm very glad you've found a specific Avian Vet now and that she is one you are comfortable with. :thumbsup:
It's great that you now have a treatment plan to help them recover. :hug:

I'd be interested as to whether or not your new Avian Vet has any literature discussing how pellets might contribute to kidney problems and/or if she can direct us to any on-line veterinary synopsis addressing the matter.

Pellets contributing to kidney problems is not something I've seen in any of the research I've done or papers written by Avian Vets. :S

Everything I've encountered advises a balanced diet to include: pellets, a high quality seed mix and a variety of budgie safe vegetables.*


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## immorgan (Jun 30, 2016)

Yana, I'm not sure what part of Washington you're in but if your vet in Oregon is a long drive (like it would be for me) I have a great one in Bothell. The Center for Exotic Animal and Bird Medicine vet is great and they can make wellness plans for your birds, which include discounted annual check-ups. Dr. Music is who I request  she's really great.
Again, I'm not sure if this clinic would be closer to you than your other one. But I thought I'd share, just in case anyone else in the area needs a vet


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

FaeryBee said:


> *Yana,
> 
> I'm very glad you've found a specific Avian Vet now and that she is one you are comfortable with. :thumbsup:
> It's great that you now have a treatment plan to help them recover. :hug:
> ...


You know I never read anything about kidney problems in budgies, first time I ever heard of it. It could be specific to Kiwi & Nacho situation because of all the medication they went through and a drastic change in diet to pellets and veggies. They weren't getting seeds at all, I thought seeds were causing all this.

Dr. Lintner gave me a print out of The 30 Day Renal Diet that she put together. I took a picture of it, see attachment.

Then I searched for "kidney problems in budgies" and found this one article. All symptoms listed are exactly what Kiwi & Nacho have..."Kidney disease is often seen in budgies. You may see many different signs such as a fluffed, listless bird, depression, anorexia, weakness, not flying, weight loss, wet droppings, increased thirst, lameness, swollen joints, difficulty breathing and/or a swollen, puffy abdomen."

Article doesn't specify pellets and leafy greens as being the only cause, it says, "There are many causes of kidney problems including infections (bacterial, viral, fungal, and parasitic), tumors (common in budgies), toxic insults, certain nutritional excesses, metabolic disorders (such as gout) and blockages or obstructions."

Here's a link, Kidney Disorders in Birds | VCA Animal Hospitals

I'm also going to ask this vet for literature


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

immorgan said:


> Yana, I'm not sure what part of Washington you're in but if your vet in Oregon is a long drive (like it would be for me) I have a great one in Bothell. The Center for Exotic Animal and Bird Medicine vet is great and they can make wellness plans for your birds, which include discounted annual check-ups. Dr. Music is who I request  she's really great.
> Again, I'm not sure if this clinic would be closer to you than your other one. But I thought I'd share, just in case anyone else in the area needs a vet


Yes, that's very far from me. I'm in Vancouver, WA which is on the other side across the bridge from Portland. But thank you for recommending  very cute birdies


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## lbeckman (Jun 26, 2016)

From Gout In Pet Birds - Avian Kidney Disease
[This website seems more documented and the author does say that s/he feels that the diet we feed pet birds it frequently too hight in protein. The upshot from looking at a lot of websites is, as others have stated, variety!!]
Poultry are not hookbills, but because of their economic importance, they have been studied more than any other species of bird. We know that in chickens, turkeys and pigeons, blood uric acid levels increase as the concentration of protein in their diets increase (ref) and that diets too high in combined protein and calcium produce gout in poultry .


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## Crunchkin (Apr 10, 2011)

I started with Avi-cakes and then switched to Harrison's mash plus lots of veggies. It overloaded their kidneys


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


Crunchkin said:



You know I never read anything about kidney problems in budgies, first time I ever heard of it. It could be specific to Kiwi & Nacho situation because of all the medication they went through and a drastic change in diet to pellets and veggies. They weren't getting seeds at all, I thought seeds were causing all this.

Dr. Lintner gave me a print out of The 30 Day Renal Diet that she put together. I took a picture of it, see attachment.

Then I searched for "kidney problems in budgies" and found this one article. All symptoms listed are exactly what Kiwi & Nacho have..."Kidney disease is often seen in budgies. You may see many different signs such as a fluffed, listless bird, depression, anorexia, weakness, not flying, weight loss, wet droppings, increased thirst, lameness, swollen joints, difficulty breathing and/or a swollen, puffy abdomen."

Article doesn't specify pellets and leafy greens as being the only cause, it says, "There are many causes of kidney problems including infections (bacterial, viral, fungal, and parasitic), tumors (common in budgies), toxic insults, certain nutritional excesses, metabolic disorders (such as gout) and blockages or obstructions."

Here's a link, Kidney Disorders in Birds | VCA Animal Hospitals

I'm also going to ask this vet for literature 

Click to expand...

Yanna,

Thank you for your response. 

I had read the literature regarding Kidney Disease in the past.

I was just wondering if the vet was against feeding pellets when they are simply a portion of a varied diet as I had indicated previously. (i.e. where the diet consists of pellets, a high quality seed mix and a variety of vegetables).



lbeckman said:



From Gout In Pet Birds - Avian Kidney Disease
[This website seems more documented and the author does say that s/he feels that the diet we feed pet birds it frequently too hight in protein. The upshot from looking at a lot of websites is, as others have stated, variety!!]
Poultry are not hookbills, but because of their economic importance, they have been studied more than any other species of bird. We know that in chickens, turkeys and pigeons, blood uric acid levels increase as the concentration of protein in their diets increase (ref) and that diets too high in combined protein and calcium produce gout in poultry .

Click to expand...

Thank you for providing the article about gout.
I like to see articles written specifically by Avian Vets. :thumbsup:
As we all know, opinions - even among trained Avian professionals, are sometimes varied.
Having as many articles at our disposal as possible helps us to make better informed decisions
in the care of our birds. 
*


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