# Beak bruising



## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

*Bruising/Bleeding under the beak*

Buddy has had this bruise for a week now, like he is bleeding under his beak. I sent photos to his avian vet who said it looked like a bruise, like he flew into something. But I don't recall him knocking into anything. He's cage bound unfortunately, and while he does have night frights occasionally I haven't noticed any lately. It's possible something happened when I wasn't in the room.

He has a bell that he loves to tap and knock with his beak, and maybe that is what is causing this, if he bruises very easily? He is otherwise eating and acting normally, except a bit more sleepy and quiet than usual. But he is molting as well which could be the reason for that.

From what I've looked up on, it could be liver problems that cause them to bruise easily. But I've never seen any photos as bad as his. Has anyone seen anything like this?

He's on a seed mix which has just a little zupreem fruit pellets mixed in. Oddly the seed mix has a lower listed fat content than the pellets. I give him lots of millet too. I can't get him to eat veggies.

I bought some milk thistle extract in case it is his liver. I asked the vet, who provided me a dosage. But I haven't given him any yet because I don't know the best way to administer it. It is super stressful for both of us for me to catch him and give him oral meds, so I'd rather avoid that. He is a very picky eater so I don't know what I can put it on that he would take. The vet recommended a little bit of bread or on a nutriberry, but again he's a very picky eater that doesn't like new foods. The vet advised against putting anything in his water.

I've scheduled a vet visit but I am very nervous. I've always avoided blood tests for him, and that is what they recommend. But if he bleeds so easily, that really scares me. He's also not very tame and I worry about it stressing him out.

A little medical background, he's 8 years old. He was very sick last December with some kind of infection. Green poops, not eating or drinking. I gave him antibiotics, he got better, and then he got sick again with Candida. I gave him nystatin and he got better. He's been itchy ever since.

Im attaching photos. They're 6 days apart and you can see it's only gotten bigger


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

It very well could be a liver issue causing the bruise, dark spots may also appear on the nails. I have had several birds with this over the years. Treatment has been milk thistle with lactulose, sometimes Metacam has been added as a anti-inflammatory. It has been my experience that these birds with liver problems seem more prone to infections and have flare ups periodically that require a course of antibiotics. A blood test can determine the severity of the problem. It could be fatty liver but there are other liver issues as well.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

It is strange because it has come on so suddenly last weekend. And seems to bleed more every day. It is hard for me to judge his nails as theve always been darker colored.

This is the milk thistle that I got, recommended by the vet: 
https://www.amazon.com/Natures-Answer-Alcohol-Free-Thistle-Extract/dp/B01KXWPY6Y/

The vet said 0.01 to 0.05 ml which I converted to be up to 1.4 drops. I have tried rubbing a drop on his millet but he doesn't like it. When you've treated your birds, did you put it in their water, and how much? Did you see an improvement?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

The milk thistle I got was dispensed to me by the vet, the dosage was .03 ml right into the mouth. There was improvement but it's hard to say what caused the improvement because all my liver problem birds were on multiple meds, I had one that was on 5 meds and I felt so bad for him, he had a lot of ups and downs. I do have one guy that is on just the milk thistle now, he does not have anymore bruises but his beak grows like crazy and he has to have it trimmed every 3 weeks, other than that he appears normal but we know he has underlying liver disease. It is important to have the vet examine your bird to determine if the liver is enlarged, an experienced avian vet can feel it if it is enlarged and sometimes an x-ray is in order, the blood work will show if the plasma is yellow tinged, which is an indication of liver disease and the blood work will reveal many other things showing the health of the bird. Is it an avian vet you are seeing, are you in the US or elsewhere?


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

Thank you for your responses Cody. Did your birds' bruising look like this? It seems a lot more bleeding than any other photos I could find on the Internet.

It's an avian and exotic vet. The whole place specializes in just avian and exotics. I'm in the US. Unfortunately they'll be closed this weekend and labor day so I don't know what day I'll be able to get him in.

I'm really afraid for him to have a blood draw because he's not very tame and easily frightened. And apparently has bleeding issues now. The thought of it really terrified me the last time I took him in, and I declined blood tests then. I don't know what to do, because if it is his liver, would they suggest anything other than to give him milk thistle?

It was so so hard giving him the meds last time. I had to chase him around the cage and grab him with a towel. He'd probably bruise like crazy if I had to do it now. I really hope I can somehow give the milk thistle in his water.

I think his beak has always been around the length it is now. Does it look overgrown? The vet never mentioned it when I took him in before.

He's been sleeping a lot today, head tucked in, except when I come into the room to check on him. Then he acts like he wasn't sleeping.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

The bruising in my birds looked comparable to yours, some of it was not quite as centered as yours. I can't tell from the picture if the beak is overgrown, it may not be as it does not always happen with liver issues. I understand your concern about the blood work, talk to the vet about treatment on the assumption of liver disease. The treatment can differ a bit depending on the severity of it and if there are any underlying issues. If it were my bird I would have a fecal gram stain done to rule out any infection in the GI tract, as I had that happen often with my birds that had the liver issues. The vet needs to determine if the liver is swollen which may change the medication protocol. The milk thistle with lactulose is good because when you have liver disease, the liver which usually breaks down ammonia, is impaired and cannot do so, the lactulose helps with that. Metacam will help reduce inflammation, Ursodiol is a bile acid and can also be helpful, an antibiotic if an infection is suspected, 
and perhaps DMG an immune system booster. All of these have to be given directly into the mouth. My birds are not hand tame so the method I use is as follows: I medicate in a darkened room with only a night light on, in the am right before it is light, and if meds are required twice a day I do the same thing at night, I wait for about 15 minutes after I have turned off the lights and covered them for the night, I quietly open the cage, determine where the bird is and slowly reach in and cup my hands around the bird and remove from the cage, I do this with bare hands, the bird is awake when I reach in so I am not startling the bird out of sleep. I am right handed so with the bird in my left hand and the syringe in my right I give the meds. If the bird is squirmy I set them on my knee with my left hand over them so they cannot fly away and then give the meds. It does take practice to get comfortable with it. Remember when holding a bird never compress the chest or the bird will not be able to breathe, if the medication goes into the choanal slit, which is a slit in the roof of the mouth, it could cause the bird to aspirate and you will notice sneezing and coughing. If you are uncomfortable medicating, have the vet show you how to do it. When you put meds in the water you can never be sure if the bird is actually getting enough to combat the problem.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

Thank you for the suggestions! The vet taught me to do a similar thing, but turning the lights off and grabbing him before his vision adjusts. It's still really hard for me to do because of the way the perches are set up, I have to wait for him to fly down so I can catch him with a towel. Hence the chase. I get so nervous, I don't know if I can do it with bare hands hmy:

Here's some photos that show his beak from another angle. Please tell me what you think about its length.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I enlarged your photos and I think it is a bit long but not too bad, he may benefit from having the vet trim and grind it smooth. It is important that the vet does this in a bird with a liver condition because of the bleeding issue. At my vet the vet techs usually do the beak and nail trims but not on the birds with liver issues, the vets do those. If the vet looks at it and says it's ok then I would just keep an eye on it and if it gets longer then it will need trimming as it may begin to effect his eating capability.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

Just an update. Buddy had his blood tests last month and they came back with very high cholesterol and triglycerides. But the liver enzymes were good. Is it possible he still could have a fatty liver?

The vet mentioned how this could lead to atherosclerosis and he said he could prescribe VetOmega fatty acids supplement. Is anyone familiar with this? The vet never replied back to me so I got some Missing Link supplement powder which has omega fatty acids. I don't like that it has beef liver in it though - that seems like it would be bad for cholesterol? I was looking into red palm oil - any thoughts on that?

The vet recommended changing his diet to include more pellets and fresh fruit/vegetables. I am able to get him to eat some fruit Zupreem pellets, but he will not take to any fruit or vegetables. Is there anything I can do to get him to eat them?

He also recommended exercise, but I don't know how I can do this because he is cage bound. He does not want to come out of his cage. I have gotten him to step up on my finger for some millet though, but if I try to get him too far from his perch he gets off.

Also, his beak bruise grew out and eventually shed off. But in the past few days he is getting a new one, smaller, in the same spot. I was giving him the milk thistle by dropper for two weeks after the vet visit, but went back to just putting it in the water because catching him is so stressful. It's been about a month of the milk thistle water. Should I go back to the dropper?

His beak may still be overgrown. I've tried to get him used to chew toys - he really enjoys the bird kabob made of yucca I think. Is there anything else that would be good, like a mineral block?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Do you know if the blood work done included the level of bile acids? The bile acid levels can give a good indication of the condition of the liver, also I would ask what was the color of the plasma, if it had any tinge of yellow in it that can be an indication of the degree of liver function. Given the fact that the tests showed very high cholesterol and triglycerides it would not surprise me if there was fat infiltration into the liver, I think it is a question of how much, the bruising on the beak is due to the blood not clotting properly due to the liver not functioning at 100%. I have a couple birds with liver issues and they get the milk thistle right in the beak, and that is long term. With the veggies I would try offering them in different sizes, I chop up kale, romaine, swiss chard and finely grated carrots and serve and other times I may just hang a piece of something green in the cages. It can take a long time to get them to try something new. Is he in a room where it would be safe to leave the cage open as long as someone is there, maybe he would come out eventually. If he is not accustomed to coming out and flying he may not have developed his muscles enough to be able to fly very well, if you could get him to come out you could get a playground for him to be on and maybe he would get comfortable being out of the cage. Mineral block, cuttle bone or a lava stone will help with the beak.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

I don’t know if bile acids were part of it, I’m thinking not. He sent me the chart and it shows things like uric acid, AST, protein. He said he saw no problems with liver or kidney values. However, the triglycerides and cholesterol were very high. They were outside of the range that could even be analyzed. BUN showed low, which the vet didn’t comment on. 

One issue is that there was a high level of lipids in the blood sample (lipemic), and the vet said this was because he must have eaten before it. I had given him some millet to eat before I took him in. Nobody told me he needed to be fasting. Their machine was not able to process the tests because of this, and it had to be sent out to another lab.

He does have a cuttle bone and uses it everyday, but it’s been there for years so he must not use it as much as other budgies. Do you have a recommendation for a certain kind of mineral block? I’m worried about lava blocks because I read some birds swallow the lava stone and that can be bad. His nails had grown kind of long too so they clipped them. They’ve always been on the long side though.

He weighed I think 50g, which I would think is a lot but the vet didn’t think he was overweight nor fat. He said his muscles felt well developed, which surprised me as he doesn’t fly. Sometimes he holds on to a perch and rapidly flaps his wings. That’s about the only exercise he gets because he only likes to stay on the perch by his bell.

Also, do you have any recommendation of omega fatty acids like red palm oil or the VetOmega product - is that good to treat cholesterol and high triglycerides or potential liver problems?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

50 grams is pretty heavy I am surprised that the vet did not say anything. If he was an English Budgie it would be more acceptable. I have never been prescribed omega fatty acids for my liver problem birds your vet may be suggesting them for the potential benefit for the possible atherosclerosis. Here is a link to an article about them https://lafeber.com/pet-birds/balanced-omega-fatty-acids-why-do-birds-need-them/
I use these mineral blocks https://zoomed.com/bird-banquet-vegetable-formula/ you can find them in some pet stores or online. The beaks of some birds with fatty liver tend to overgrow and need professional trimming periodically even if they are using mineral blocks etc..
If the high level of lipids in the blood was due to his eating before the test then the test results are giving a number that is not realistic because it was effected by eating, same as if a person has to have a test for cholesterol and triglycerides, a fasting test gives a more realistic picture, did the vet want to re run the test at some point?


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

The vet did not mention bringing him back for another test. He was sedated for that one so I hope I never have to do it again. The chart mentioned that protein values can be artificially high due to the lipemia but that other analyses are not generally effected. I would have assumed triglycerides and cholesterol would be effected by that but apparently not.

What should they weigh, on average? He was between 30-40g last year when he was ill with some kind of GI infection. His keel bone was sharp then as he was underweight.

That’s one of the mineral blocks I had been looking at, thanks for the suggestion!


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Do you ration the amount of seed he gets?
In addition to pellets and vegetables, he should be getting 1 1/2 teaspoons of a healthy seed mix each day.*


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

I don’t ration it, but that’s about the amount of seed I add to his food dish every morning. The dish holds maybe a cup of food. I put seeds, then pellets on top, then sprinkle the Missing Link powder. He digs through to get whatever he wants as he is pretty picky and mostly eats the millet and oat groats, sometimes the fruit Zupreem pellets. I put some of the natural ones in too but he hasn’t touched them.

Do you have a recommendation for the best seed mix?

The vet recommended to get him to eat Nutriberries and Avi cakes. But he is so picky he hasn’t even tried them.

I also give him a little millet spray throughout the day, holding it up to him or when he is on my finger. I don’t leave it in the cage.

Edit - he also regurgitates to his bell a lot. I don’t know how that impacts how many calories he actually takes in.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

I’ve got another question too. That blueish coloration on the sides of the beak under the cere - is this normal for a budgie?


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## AnimalKaperz (Jun 19, 2012)

I dont see that as a problem. I just looked at my two males and they both have darkening like that, and they don't have any health issues.

Have you considered the use of a nebuliser to get the meds into your bird? Just a thought.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Here is the link to information about Quality Seed Mix:

Quality Seed Mix*


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## AnimalKaperz (Jun 19, 2012)

One thing my birds all love is sprouted seed. It's so easy to do ... and nutritious and less fattening than seeds alone


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

I got a new prescription from the vet, VetOmega (fatty acids) and Hepasil (liver supplement) blend. It apparently tastes awful, which is making it so much harder to get the medication into him. He's been on it for almost two weeks and I'm not sure if it's helping or not.

Today I noticed what looked like blood on his feathers around the beak. I don't know if he cut his face scratching himself or what. I know that the medication is oily and stains and messes up his feathers a bit because he doesn't really swallow it a lot of the time. But it looks like blood. I took photos while he was preening, you can see on the underside of the feathers. I thought his skin looked a bit red or lumpy when I was medicating him this morning, but I'm not sure, I've always thought bird skin looked weird there because you don't usually see it.



















Let me know what you guys think. His feathers are a little wet from bathing.

Also, the vet said I could trim his beak with a nail file. But I'm too nervous to try. Do you guys have any tips or suggestions? I thought of getting a lava block, but I saw some of the reviews showed x-rays of birds who ate it and got an impaction.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Does the medication have color to it, sometimes it looks different when it dries so maybe what you think is blood is the medication. He needs his beak trimmed by the vet, when a bird has liver issues they are more prone to bleeding if the beak is trimmed too short and it is a delicate procedure so I would have the vet do it. My fatty liver guy goes every 3 weeks for a trim and because of the liver issue the vet techs that usually do the beak and nail trims on a healthy bird, are not allowed to do the fatty liver birds, the vet does them.


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## Kujen (Jun 9, 2007)

Oh wow I hope it doesn't come to that. His vet is fairly far away and expensive too. He is very easily scared so they sedated him to draw blood and trim nails last time. The medication is kind of yellowy orange, it stains paper towels a bright yellow color.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

At some pint you will have to get the beak trimmed, if it gets too long it can interfere with his ability to eat.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I agree with Cody.
You need to monitor his ability to eat very carefully. When the beak becomes too long and the bird is not able to eat, it will become mal-nourished very quickly.*


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