# Desensitizing the hands and other fear-based issues



## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

Hello! Brand-new budgie parent here. I have two budgies, and both of them are very human-shy. Hands are a whole other dimension of fear. I have worked with many dogs who have been human shy and I'm applying a similar theory here with the birds, but I'm not sure if this is the best course of action. I placed my desk next to their cage and so far I've just been reading to them and playing relaxing music so they can get used to looking at me and know that I'm not something they need to be afraid of. Very minimal eye contact if I even look at them at all. I have also had my hands visible and have been casually working at my desk so there's also movement, but not sticking them directly in the bird's faces. Just letting the birds check me out from a comfortable distance. My next course of action is, once they're ok with seeing hands, to work on counter-conditioning hands with food. I'm not really sure how far I can get without it being too quick and fast for them. I am very familiar with using clickers and saw that as advice on here but not sure where to start as I don't know how to "charge" the clicker. In the dog world, you click and immediately treat to build that reward association. But if they won't go near my hands... then what? I know this part is crucial for bonding, helping them exercise, emergencies, etc. Hands must be desensitized.
My idea was to start by opening and closing the cage periodically. Then put a hand in, and take it out. Etc etc. Slowly moving closer over a period of days or maybe weeks depending on the speed the birds require. But that just teaches them that I'm not here to grab them, it doesn't really do much for building a _positive _association.
I just want to be able to hang out with them and not seem like a total menace  they've likely been ignored and roughly handled their entire lives and I know it is going to take a lot of time, patience, and possibly nips before they're cool with me, but it's worth waiting for.

To lighten this thread up a bit, I'm also looking for name ideas  I was considering Klondike and Sitka. Kass is also a thought, like the parrot in Legend of Zelda. And Percy!


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

@FaeryBee has a great write-up on this for taming.
But you've got the right ideas going!

For hands, start the way that you are. Move up to just resting your hand on the outside of the cage for 5-10 minutes a few times a day.
After a week or so of that, you can move to just placing your hand "in" the cage. Don't touch them, go near them or even move. Just rest it there for the same 5-10 minutes a few times a day.

They will eventually stop freaking out about it and slowly move up to investigating more-likely-than-not. Then you can work on treat placement in the hand to see if you can then lure them to step on it to eat from it (again without moving).

And then you go from there 
This could take weeks or even months of work. Birds require _far_ more patience with training than dogs and cats do. They all know instinctively that they are "prey items" and we are basically asking them to ignore that natural response.

Pics! We love helping with names.
Sitka and Ketchikan for the Alaskan theme?


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> @FaeryBee has a great write-up on this for taming.
> But you've got the right ideas going!
> 
> For hands, start the way that you are. Move up to just resting your hand on the outside of the cage for 5-10 minutes a few times a day.
> ...


Thank you for the help! I'll attach a picture for naming purposes.
QUICK UPDATE: we were told they were both males, we brought them home yesterday night and I realized this morning when the light was decent that they are actually a male and a female. Since they were adoptees from a home that could no longer keep them due to a new baby, and the two of them seem pretty bonded, I don't want to separate them. Maybe different cages? I have no idea what to do! I don't necessarily mind hatchlings, but as a newbie I'll need some resources in case this happens. I also don't know exactly what to do with the babies if they do have them. I'm very much about ethical homes and practices, and breeding wasn't a consideration of mine. But apparently, now it is! I know they will be safe and well cared for in my home and I don't want to surrender them to a shelter where they could potentially end up in poorer care, diet and exercise wise, or separated. Along with the added stress of having to "resettle" somewhere new. Also, I will add that I know seeds should only be fed in moderation, but it's pretty much all they'll take right now and I want to make sure they're eating regularly. The wooden ladder will also be swapped out for something naturally shaped to avoid bumblefoot  i don't think the previous people who had them knew much about bird care, and I'm still learning myself, but I didn't want to change their cage setup since it's what they're used to right now and familiarity in a new place is important.


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

Alright, so a few things off-the-bat.. 


Ditch the seed thing you have in there, it's probably way to high in sugar for them. Budgies need a very veggie and pellet-heavy diet with seed only as a small part of their overall intake.
Good call on the ladder  I would change it sooner-rather-than later.
These are both babies, especially the one at the bottom of the picture. As such, you are in an opportune position to tame/bond with them and get them setup with the right kind of food. No real bad habits to break yet! 
Post some pictures of their faces in natural light and we can tell you for sure about the genders.

If they are different genders, you need to do everything that you can to discourage breeding. There are definitely things that you can do with them both in the same cage (rearrange everything frequently and absolutely no nesting boxes/tents/cubbies/anything that they could roost in). Separating them is the only real way to guarantee it, so if that's an option for you, it's not a bad way to go. The cages can obviously be right next to each other so they can still see/talk to each other. This just makes it easier if you go to add more in the future and you want to keep same-sex groups. That-all-said, you can absolutely keep them in the same cage provided you follow certain guidelines (there are stickies on the forums for this as well).
What size cage do you have? Budgies like width over height, so you want one that's at least a couple of feet wide and tall. Bigger is always better.
Since they are brand new to you, they may need a few days to "Settle in". You want to keep the cage in an area of the house that gets foot traffic so that they can see/hear the goings-on around them. You don't want to isolate them away from everyone else in the house. With time, they will think of you and your family as their flock if they are properly socialized and handled.
I would not let them out of the cage until they are comfortable with your hands. It will just make getting them back in "an event".

And you don't want babies. Like, at all. It's stressful for the birds, it's difficult on the owner and birds that breed are typically _not _the kind of birds that you want as a pet. They will become territorial and protective.


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> Alright, so a few things off-the-bat..
> 
> 
> Ditch the seed thing you have in there, it's probably way to high in sugar for them. Budgies need a very veggie and pellet-heavy diet with seed only as a small part of their overall intake.
> ...


 Thank you so much for the lack of harshly judging me for that one  I will go out and get another cage for one of them, and maybe swap the one they're in now. It's 26 inches long, 17 inches wide, 27 inches tall. I know they're horizontal flyers, but I wasn't sure if this translated to "you need to go buy a wider cage" or not because I'm not sure how far they need to fly to get exercise until I can start letting them out. Bigger is probably better, though, is what I'm assuming. I read up about transitioning to fresh foods by incorporating straight millet into purees. Do budgies have a preference on how they like to eat? Like, should I be looking for a certain kind of dish for them? I'm also concerned they need to get more water, but they're not really exploring enough to find the water dish or care for it if they have (I moved it next to the perch they've been hanging out on). Thank you very much again for all your help!


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

Sorry it’s not the best photo, I just wanted to get both of their faces in the photo for comparison. Fingers crossed they’re both boys so I can avoid taking them away from each other 😭


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

dayclovers said:


> Sorry it’s not the best photo, I just wanted to get both of their faces in the photo for comparison. Fingers crossed they’re both boys so I can avoid taking them away from each other 😭
> View attachment 259091


So I'm pretty sure that top one (the baby-baby) is a girl 
I'm not expert though, others will weigh in!


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> So I'm pretty sure that top one (the baby-baby) is a girl
> I'm not expert though, others will weigh in!


That’s what I’m thinking too, but again, newbie here. On a lighter note, I’ve bomb proofed the house for them 😂 all my Teflon is gone and air fresheners, chemical sprays, etc are done away with. So I’m doing something right at least.


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

dayclovers said:


> Thank you so much for the lack of harshly judging me for that one  I will go out and get another cage for one of them, and maybe swap the one they're in now. It's 26 inches long, 17 inches wide, 27 inches tall. I know they're horizontal flyers, but I wasn't sure if this translated to "you need to go buy a wider cage" or not because I'm not sure how far they need to fly to get exercise until I can start letting them out. Bigger is probably better, though, is what I'm assuming. I read up about transitioning to fresh foods by incorporating straight millet into purees. Do budgies have a preference on how they like to eat? Like, should I be looking for a certain kind of dish for them? I'm also concerned they need to get more water, but they're not really exploring enough to find the water dish or care for it if they have (I moved it next to the perch they've been hanging out on). Thank you very much again for all your help!



Bigger is always better when it comes to cages. Those dimensions aren't bad, so it's probably ok for now? Others will probably weigh in on this.
At the end of the day, the largest cage that you can afford is what you go with 

Food is a whole 'nother topic. Others on the forum are far better equipped to help with that one, so I will wait for them to chime in!


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

dayclovers said:


> That’s what I’m thinking too, but again, newbie here. On a lighter note, I’ve bomb proofed the house for them 😂 all my Teflon is gone and air fresheners, chemical sprays, etc are done away with. So I’m doing something right at least.


So many things that I never considered with this!
Curling irons, hair straighteners, space heaters, waffle irons, bakeware, etc... So, yeah. It's a lot 

Thank you for doing this up-front!


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> So many things that I never considered with this!
> Curling irons, hair straighteners, space heaters, waffle irons, bakeware, etc... So, yeah. It's a lot
> 
> Thank you for doing this up-front!


Another question is how do I move one of them out without it being yet another traumatic hand experience for them?


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

dayclovers said:


> Another question is how do I move one of them out without it being yet another traumatic hand experience for them?


I've read that a good way to try this is to put the two cages face-to-face with the doors open as best you can. Move the food to the new cage and then see what happens. Eventually they will get hungry..


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> I've read that a good way to try this is to put the two cages face-to-face with the doors open as best you can. Move the food to the new cage and then see what happens. Eventually they will get hungry..


I should send you a thank you gift basket or something at this point 😂 tysm for all the good advice


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

dayclovers said:


> I should send you a thank you gift basket or something at this point 😂 tysm for all the good advice


Not at all!
I'm relatively new to this myself, I've just had some more time to read through everything than you have.

The staff here will pick up this thread and give you some great pointers beyond my remedial advice.


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

srirachaseahawk said:


> Not at all!
> I'm relatively new to this myself, I've just had some more time to read through everything than you have.
> 
> The staff here will pick up this thread and give you some great pointers beyond my remedial advice.


theoretically, could I feed this raw mixed with a bit of blended bell peppers and kale? My idea here is that human grade organic millet might be better than what the pet store is offering…


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Hi, Welcome to Talk Budgies!

The purpose of this forum is to promote the BEST PRACTICES in the care of budgies for their optimal Health and Well-Being*
*Locating an Avian Veterinarian*

*You have a mixed gender pair so you need to do everything necessary to prevent breeding. 
The one in the front is a male and the one behind it is a female.
They are both very young. Did you get them from a breeder or from a pet store?
Someone has clipped their wings very severely. *

*A heartfelt plea to forum members new and old*
*Tips For Discouraging Breeding*
*Before You Ever Consider Breeding Your Budgies*
*Guidance for Breeding Advice Threads*

*Give the birds the diet they were on when you got them and then start transitioning them using the information in the links below:

Giving your budgies millet for a couple of days when you first get them is fine.
However, then you need to only give millet as a treat (very sparingly).
Millet is high in fat content and, like children with candy, if your budgies have the option to eat that, they will do so instead of eating a healthy diet.*

*A Healthy Diet for your Budgie*
*Quality Seed Mix*
*CuttleBones, Mineral Blocks and Manu Clay Roses*
*Safe Foods for Budgies*
*The Truth about GRIT*

*It can take several weeks (or even months) for budgies to decide to try a new food.
Fruit is high in sugar content so vegetables are actually healthier for your budgies with fruits given only occasionally (once or twice a week)

Budgies need a minimum of two weeks to settle into their new home and you should not be trying to touch or tame them at this time. They are often submissive initially because they are terrified.

You can cover the top and three sides of the cage to help them feel more secure. Play music or the TV for them when you are not around during the day.

Taming and Bonding is all about helping your budgie learn to trust you and it takes a great deal of time and patience on your part.
You should never grab your budgies or force them to be touched.
To bond with your budgie, you need to build their trust in you.
They will have to learn over time that you will not hurt them, grab them and try to force them to allow you to hold them.

To build your birds’ trust, sit by their cage and read, talk or sing quietly to them for a period of at least 10-15 minutes, 3 or 4 times day. 
After about a week, rest your hand on the outside of the cage when you talk to them so they will learn that your hand is safe and will not hurt them. 

After a week or so of resting your hand on the outside of the cage, rest your hand inside the cage when you talk. 
Don’t make sudden moves, don’t try to touch them.
Let them get used to the idea that the hand is now in their safe place and not harming them.

After 2 weeks, begin moving your hand slowly toward your bird. If they become agitated, stop moving your hand and just hold very still until they calm down. When they are comfortable with your hand near them, you can offer them a bit of millet or a few seeds.

Always work at your birds’ pace.
Move slowly and talk reassuringly and calmly to their whenever you interact with them.

Please take the time to read through the Site Guidelines, the FAQs, the Budgie Articles and all of the Stickies located at the top of each section of the forum.*
*Truly, the very BEST advice anyone can offer you is to take the time to read ALL of the stickies throughout the various Talk Budgie forums as well as the Budgie Articles we have posted.*
*(Stickies are threads “stuck” at the top of each forum sub-section)

These are great resources for Talk Budgie members and have a wealth of reliable information which will assist you to learn the best practices in caring for your budgies for their optimal health and well-being.*

*SITE GUIDELINES*
*Posting on the Forums*
*Let's Talk Budgies!*
*FAQ*
*Articles*
*Be Prepared for Veterinary Care Expense*
*Avian First Aid*
*Quarantine IS Necessary!*
*Cage sizes.*
*Essentials to a Great Cage*
*Dangers to Pet Birds*
*Resource Directory*

*Transferring budgies into a different cage:
To make it less stressful for your budgies, take everything out of their current cage except for one perch.

Set up the new cage and include a favorite treat, such as some millet. 
Put the two cages side by side with the doors open and facing one another. 

Stand back and let the budgies move of their own accord. This may take some time, but when they get hungry or thirsty they'll move over into the new cage to eat and drink. 
*


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## dayclovers (Oct 22, 2021)

FaeryBee said:


> *Hi, Welcome to Talk Budgies!
> 
> The purpose of this forum is to promote the BEST PRACTICES in the care of budgies for their optimal Health and Well-Being*
> *Locating an Avian Veterinarian*
> ...


Thank you for all the resources! Long story short, I have a friend who got them and then decided very shortly after that they were going to be too high-maintenance for her as she has a new baby. Why she got them in the first place, I don't know. I also have no idea where she got them from but if I were to guess I'd say a pet store since I live in the midwest and nobody breeds budgies in my local area. On the topic of their wings, do I need to do anything about them or will they grow back? IE, should I take them to a vet for treatment or care on this?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Since you are new to budgies, you need to be aware that when the female starts coming into condition, her cere is going to get brown and crusty so don't panic when that happens. 

Please make sure you start reading the budgie articles and the stickies as you will find answers to most basic questions there.
If, after reading through them, you have questions, we will be more than happy to help.

The flight feathers will grow back with the budgies molt. They won't be able to fly until the flight feathers grow in.
They may exercise their wings by holding onto a perch and flapping the wings very fast. This is good as it strengthens the wing muscles and helps them be able to fly better once the flight feathers grow in.*
*Budgies are healthier and happier when they are fully flighted.**

Budgies generally have a first light molt at around 3 - 4 months old and another at 6 -7 months old.
When a budgie reaches at 1 year old their molts adjust to the Seasons., After the adjustment the budgie will have its big molts in the Spring and Fall. Budgies may also have lighter molts throughout the year; triggered by stress, change in diet or change in environment.

You can supplement your budgie’s diet with egg food during a molt.
This helps your budgies replenish the energy lost during the time they lose and grow in the new feathers.
Additionally, egg food promotes good and healthy feather growth.

It is possible to buy ready-made egg food at any specialized pet store but just as easy to make your own by hard boiling an egg, mashing it up and mixing it with a bit of cooked quinoa and flax seed. You can also finely chop some veggies and add it to the egg food mix.

Budgies get itchy during their molt, so they'll preen and scratch more often. Additionally, they may be sleepier and quieter as molting takes a lot of energy, and their poop could be a little runnier. To make them more comfortable, you can offer them baths either in a shallow dish of water at the bottom of their cage or by hanging wet greens (romaine lettuce or kale works best) in their cage so they can nibble on it and rub against them.*

*Molting FAQs*
*Miserable Molting*


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

Hello and welcome to the forums! 

FaeryBee and Siracha have given great advice and I agree completely. 

Meanwhile, you’ve come to a great place to learn even more about the best of budgie care practices! Please be sure to have a look around the forums’ many budgie articles and “stickies”, provided above, to ensure you’re up to date on everything! If you have questions after doing so, please be sure to ask as we’d love to help. 

Please keep us posted! 

Cheers! 👋


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## ChickWas (May 6, 2021)

What you're doing seems great, and you come across as a very conscientious and empathic owner. You've got the fundamentals down perfectly, your motto of 'slow and steady' is the way to go. Getting them used to you from a distance worked amazing for me, I did the old desk near their cage trick and since it was during lockdown, I was beside them for multiple hours a day, every day, for weeks 😂 

Give them a few weeks of just being used to you from afar. Introduce treats (millet spray works great for me) to them and let them realise they're filthy crack addicts. Once they're excited over the millet and realise it's their favourite, you can start trying to feed it to them through the bars, just remember to always go slow and steady. Once they're comfortable eating it through the bars, you can try holding your hand near their open cage door and letting them come to you to eat (it helps if perch placement works in a way that allows them easy access near the door). It's probably best not to stick your hand in as they view it as their personal space and you still have to build up to that level of comfort.

Fingers crossed, with all that, they'll slowly start to realise your hands aren't a threat, and actually _bring _good things. I'm sure they'll be stepping up in no time (no time in budgie time equals a few months lol).


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