# Does this bird have scaly face mites?



## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

I was in the pet store the other day where I bought my bird, & I took some photos of their birds. (Mutations I was curious about etc.) Check out the beak on this gray budgie .....face mites? This store has a *real* problem. If so, there are a lot of birds there to get infected. This gray one just started her baby molt. Looks uncomfortable.


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## aluz (Jul 24, 2011)

On the first picture, I'm seeing a little crust below the cere, where her cere meets the beak. 
Unfortunately, she does seem to have early stages of scaly face mites.


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## damag (Sep 3, 2015)

aluz said:


> On the first picture, I'm seeing a little crust below the cere, where her cere meets the beak.
> Unfortunately, she does seem to have early stages of scaly face mites.


Oh no scaly mites ! What is the treatment for early stage scaly mites? I once heard there were easy and effective home made treatments for scaly mites? Could you guide us on these?

How do you differentiate early stage of scaly mites and a cere that perhaps is naturally peeling?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aluz (Jul 24, 2011)

damag said:


> Oh no scaly mites ! What is the treatment for early stage scaly mites? I once heard there were easy and effective home made treatments for scaly mites? Could you guide us on these?
> 
> How do you differentiate early stage of scaly mites and a cere that perhaps is naturally peeling?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The most effective treatment, even for early stage mites is to get a spot-on Ivermectin based product and apply it on the back of the neck and directly into the skin.
By resorting to home made treatments, the full eradication of the mites may not be possible and with time the case can progress further.

The difference is by taking a good look at the beak/cere and seeing the pattern left on the area. With mites there is a thicker crust and you can see little clusters where the mites are located. The beak will also suffer lesions caused by the mites, this is very different from a normal peeling of the beak or when the skin on the cere is in the process of moulting.


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

I was at that same pet store yesterday... and saw some birds with the same condition...(scaly face mites) but even worse. Will post pics because I think it might be helpful for spotting this... and thanks Aluz for the great clarifications. I'm also going to post some video of some other birds at the same store... who were breathing out of their mouth. Which I believe is also a sign of mites... air sac mites. I will post these things... not to depress anyone (as it's certainly sad).... but for learning purposes, and so we can keep an eye out for what to keep looking for with any ill budgies.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


BlueBirdNYC said:



I was at that same pet store yesterday... and saw some birds with the same condition...(scaly face mites) but even worse. Will post pics because I think it might be helpful for spotting this... and thanks Aluz for the great clarifications. I'm also going to post some video of some other birds at the same store... who were breathing out of their mouth. Which I believe is also a sign of mites... air sac mites. I will post these things... not to depress anyone (as it's certainly sad).... but for learning purposes, and so we can keep an eye out for what to keep looking for with any ill budgies. 

Click to expand...

It would be best not to post pictures and videos of the birds at the store. 
It is against our guidelines to show or discuss budgies being kept in undesirable conditions.

If people want to see what scaly mite conditions look like, they can simply do a google-search on their own. 

There are steps to report the store should you wish to do so.

http://talkbudgies.com/general-budg...abused-mistreated-kept-unsafe-conditions.html

http://talkbudgies.com/general-budg...le-breeder-rather-than-big-box-pet-store.html

*


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

Ah... got it... thanks! My error.... I didn't realize that component of the guidelines. My mistake. I'll proceed accordingly, and many sincere thanks for the links. [Unfortunately I had this one store wrong. They're not a big box, so I thought they were a bit different ... but ugh, I was wrong.  .... I'll handle accordingly. Thanks....]


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

FaeryBee said:


> *
> 
> It would be best not to post pictures and videos of the birds at the store.
> It is against our guidelines to show or discuss budgies being kept in undesirable conditions.
> ...


I read both of those links. Immensely helpful. Thanks. ... The one small silver lining is I'm looking forward to contacting management/ownership of the store where I purchased my budgie & seeing about making sure their flock gets treated for mites. If I can help the birds & prevent future owners from getting surprised with a preventable condition...that would be good. My sense is, and I hope I'm correct, is that this store is at the moment uneducated vs. cavalierly neglectful. The staff seems to genuinely care, but aren't that informed. It's my understanding that there used to be someone on staff that was very knowledgeable about budgies...but has left in recent months. .... Whatever the situation.... I'm going to be tenacious in making sure their birds receive proper care.


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

I hope that the store responds in a positive manner! :thumbsup: Let us know how it goes


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

StarlingWings said:


> I hope that the store responds in a positive manner! :thumbsup: Let us know how it goes


Thank you... will do


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

*Thank you*



StarlingWings said:


> I hope that the store responds in a positive manner! :thumbsup: Let us know how it goes


Great news so far. My vibe that this was a conscientious small pet store business (vs. big box), so far, is holding correct.

I went to the store and the assistant manager called their livestock manager who has been with the company 20 years, who immediately instructed him regarding what would happen next. He took action immediately. [ Don't sell any birds, all the birds in the entire room are going to be treated with Ivermectin; the entire room & cages and so forth will all be disinfected properly etc. ]

My worst fear, was that he would be instructed to put the birds on a truck to send somewhere to be euthanized. My worst fear ... because of some of the bad practices one reads about. I never read about that per se, but who knows.

Anyhow, when I spoke with Customer Service --- they said that would never ever happen. Clearly this is a small company filled with animal lovers.

So that's taking care of their birds in the store... as for my bird.... they're going to refund me for the vet and the Scatt; and, the toys or perches that I'm going to have to throw out (I just don't know how I would disinfect toys like the ones attached? Are they disinfectable? If there is a way, I'd do it, but just don't know how with those materials. Also, I guess I have to bake all of my perches to kill the mites...? The plastic toys are pretty straightforward ... I find the wooden ones more of a mystery.).

As well, the livestock manager is going to give me a phone call to walk through some best practices, and any steps moving forward.

So... that is about as a good an outcome as I could expect, no...?

One other thing I like about this store.... when you go to a place such as PetCo or PetSmart.... all the budgies I see already have their wings clipped in what looks to be an aggressive clipping. [ At least that's what I saw last time I was in the store buying food. ] This store doesn't sell wing-clipped baby budgies. All are fully flighted.

So... while this has been a big hassle, time-consuming, and will be time-consuming [ I have to put all my receipts together for the toys etc. blah blah & email them in ]... the upside is:

- an entire room full of birds is being treated, and hopefully will either be spared the condition, & for the 4 minimum at least, that I saw with early symptoms --- will be healed.

- all future purchasers / pet owners of any of those birds have an increased chance of being spared of dealing with this condition in their pet b/c it will have been treated [ About 4 conures, 1 cockatiel, approx. 5 canaries, 8 finches maybe, at least 20 - 30 budgies... ]

- in a perfect world, the livestock manager has a conversation with their breeder to prevent this condition, and ask some pointed questions about what's going on at the breeder's facility where this happened. Something is broken in this process. Why weren't the birds that I saw (who have early symptoms) inspected before they made it to the bird room at the store? Who's inspecting the animals prior to placing them on the floor? And on a daily basis? ... I'm definitely going to ask the Livestock Manager about where was the breakdown in the process here.

So.... how did all of this potentially good problem solving come about?

Because, I had TalkBudgies.com as a resource, and I was curious about my bird's toe tapping. And I asked the question. And I got some replies. And then I was inspired to look at those little feet as closely as possible. I posted some photos to ask you experts if his feet looked suspicious.

(Yes.)

Together, we caught this at potentially the earliest possible stage, and had I not had this forum... (& a sense of well-intentioned curiosity).... I very easily might have missed this for weeks, or who knows how long. My bird sits on his feet when he sits on my finger and that camouflages where the early symptoms are located. I don't know how the symptoms progress, but I think I could have missed it somehow.... had I not known that I could ask you folks ..."what do you think this toe tapping behavior is about?"

So..... thank you. I want to truly let you know how your time, intent, thoughtfulness & sharing.... translates into positive things from the online word into the offline!


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## lbeckman (Jun 26, 2016)

The middle one looks like it would do fine baked like the wooden perches. The first and last ones might catch fire if you did that, however!


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Thank you for your kind and supportive message. :hug:

I'm so glad you've received a positive response thus far from the pet-store and livestock manager. This is great news indeed!

It's because of your initiative and willingness to contact the management that good changes will be taking place for the animals at the store (and potential owners as well). Karma is winging its way to you. 
Well done! :smiley-talk017:

With regard to the toys:
You could put the wooden one into boiling water which would kill any mites. 
I'd throw the other two toys out and replace them to be safe.*


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

It's lovely to hear that the pet store was so responsive, that really is a wonderful outcome for the situation! :clap: arty: 

I agree with the toys, toss the 1st and 3rd but the middle one will clean up well with hot water. Keep in mind that the colours will run, but all toys are coloured with budgie safe food colouring so once it dries, it may be faded but it will still be just fine for him  

I'm wishing your little budgie a rapid recovery from the mites!


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## Barbara* (Feb 22, 2016)

Good luck with communication with the pet shop, sometimes I think they really do not care and its just a fast buck to be made on this sweet little birdies... 

I am wondering about these mites ... are they prevalent in cooler climates like Southern Ontario and other parts of Canada?


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

lbeckman said:


> The middle one looks like it would do fine baked like the wooden perches. The first and last ones might catch fire if you did that, however!


cool thanks.... ! yes, I think I'm going to make all attempts to avoid a fire.


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

FaeryBee said:


> *Thank you for your kind and supportive message. :hug:
> 
> I'm so glad you've received a positive response thus far from the pet-store and livestock manager. This is great news indeed!
> 
> ...


Thank you Deborah for the response and the advice. I'm going to stay on top of the store. I'm only two blocks away... so it will be easy to monitor the situation. The staff are well-intentioned.... they need more education. I'm going to speak with the manager when he returns from vacation. I'm going to request a sit down meeting.

I'm very serious about all of this. There are laws in NY protecting dogs and cats. Birds live just as long, and as we all know... many birds live a lot longer.

Why are there not laws in NY not protecting the birds? Just dogs & cats?

The good news is this year City Council enacted a law making it illegal to sell rabbits. The only thing allowed for rabbits is adoption from rescue groups... and the rescue groups are incredible. So... that's promising to me. If there are laws for rabbits, dogs, & cats.... there can be laws for birds because they are on par. Really, there should be humanity laws for all animals, but we have to tackle one group at a time I guess.


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

JsY said:


> Good luck with communication with the pet shop, sometimes I think they really do not care and its just a fast buck to be made on this sweet little birdies...
> 
> I am wondering about these mites ... are they prevalent in cooler climates like Southern Ontario and other parts of Canada?


I don't know.... I'm a newbie... but my guess is that it's a condition that any bird anytime anywhere might be susceptible to.... I'm thinking that it's up to breeders to try to mitigate it with good breeding practices, hygiene and treatment.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm very impressed at the steps you are taking to ensure the pet store takes the situations seriously.

You might also want to suggest that either the manager or a specific designated employee become a member of the forum. *


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## Therm (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm glad this situations turned out so well. 

You'v done a wonderful job for all those birds!


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

FaeryBee said:


> *I'm very impressed at the steps you are taking to ensure the pet store takes the situations seriously.
> 
> You might also want to suggest that either the manager or a specific designated employee become a member of the forum. *


That's a great idea. I haven't had a chance to do that yet... but I definitely will make that suggestion.

I went in to the store yesterday, and there were some positive and then some other not as a positive results.

They sent all of the birds away for treatment, except for 5. Supposedly the remaining 5, they treated in the store. The remaining budgies (I'd guess it was a number between 10 and 20 budgies) ... were sent out to be treated by the company's vet. [ Whose name they gave me for my rolodex. He's too far away from me, but I viewed his website, etc. ]

The asst. manager in the store told me they were sent to be treated, and the Livestock Manager last week told me that's what she planned to do as well. She said I could stay in contact and learn what their Vet assessed about all the birds. So I am trusting this is what is happening.

This pet store chain has partnered with the Humane Society on various pledges and platforms... so I am trusting that they're approaching the care of those birds humanely.

I didn't get to speak to the manager who sent out the birds... that's a different manager, but will probably ask her about it this week. ...Also, I'm going to see if I can follow the trail of those birds. I'd like to know... do they come back to the store once treated? Another store? Do they send them back to the breeder? At some point, they may not tell me. We'll see. I'm kind of taking an Anderson Cooper role here.

The asst. manager told me that he cleaned down the room and the cages... and sprayed the cages with an Ivermectin spray [ a 10% dilution, the livestock manager told me]. I've never seen that anywhere... treating the cage environment with an Ivermectin spray. It's definitely an Ivermectin spray... the Livestock Manager told me she gets it from her Vet, she explained it's a 10% diluted Ivermectin spray.

Here's the concerning elements:

- The assistant manager told me he sprayed the (5) budgies with UltraCare 8-in-1 Mite Spray. [ I've yet to read anywhere online where this is advocated. ] And he said he saw black bugs fall off. What are these black bugs? .... I'm a bit disturbed by that.... and have been constantly inspecting my budgie's cage for what I've read about the "red mites." I don't see any on white paper towels as of yet. I'm going to cover the cage with a white sheet tonight. Which, supposedly if they're there... I'd see black or red specs in the morning. .... The pet store houses the birds in the same room as hamsters and guinea pigs... it's not a large room... so I'm wondering if they're fleas...?

- The pet store put those disk things on the sides of the cage... those "Bird Protector" disks. I've never read anywhere that those are effective or good, and tons of vet websites and bird best practices web articles state these are both ineffective and dangerous to the birds. So, I'm a bit troubled by this.

- What about the finches and canaries on the top shelf? What about the conures & cockatiel on the shelf below the budgies? I guess they think since they didn't share a cage with the budgies, that they're safe from the Scaly Face & Leg mites ... or Air Sac Mites. [ I guess because these are not air born? ] I suppose if the company's vet says there are Red Mites at work here... then they're going to need to evaluate the whole room again; as well as the other birds in the room. Because I believe that Red Mites will go all over the place and find birds to feed on. That, red mites don't just remain in one cage or transmit via contact.

In my opinion --- I believe this company is dealing with breeders that aren't holding up their end of the bargain. Sounds like the breeder got sloppy, wasn't diligent and let sick birds out the door, or let sick parent budgies breed. Things happen, but my understanding is that Scaly Leg & Face Mites and Air Sac Mites can be prevented.

So... .... I was happy all but (5) of the birds were sent out for vet evaluation and care... I am still seeking answers about why (5) were left behind.... and I'm troubled about the "black bugs that fell off" and the anti-mite disks.

At some point they're just not going to listen to me because the Livestock Manager thinks she knows best after 20 years of doing it; and she can easily (and to a degree fairly)... say it's none of my business what they do.

We'll see how it all shakes out. .... Just like the baby rabbits in NYC received some legal protection.... I'm writing / calling legislators / animal-rights-minded legislators to bring up the protections needed for birds.

This seems very common-sensical to me. They're living creatures that live over a decade. The laws need to catch up with reality.

Just because it's a small, relatively inexpensive pet... it still deserves some protection.

Don't mean to get all soap-boxy. I'm just formulating my position as I work on this.

They're highly sophisticated, long-living, sensitive creatures. This should be an easy thing that our legislators could get done. Something that most people could agree on. [Just like the rabbits. It's illegal to sell them in Manhattan. City Council accomplished that. I am giving credit where credit is due on that. That is a wonderfully kind piece of legislation.]

I can make a couple phone calls and send some email. I would ask my budgie to do it... but his feet are too small for the keyboard. : /


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*


BlueBirdNYC said:



Here's the concerning elements:

The asst. manager told me that he cleaned down the room and the cages... and sprayed the cages with an Ivermectin spray [ a 10% dilution, the livestock manager told me]. I've never seen that anywhere... treating the cage environment with an Ivermectin spray. It's definitely an Ivermectin spray... the Livestock Manager told me she gets it from her Vet, she explained it's a 10% diluted Ivermectin spray.

- The assistant manager told me he sprayed the (5) budgies with UltraCare 8-in-1 Mite Spray. [I've yet to read anywhere online where this is advocated. ] And he said he saw black bugs fall off. What are these black bugs? .... I'm a bit disturbed by that.... and have been constantly inspecting my budgie's cage for what I've read about the "red mites." I don't see any on white paper towels as of yet. I'm going to cover the cage with a white sheet tonight. Which, supposedly if they're there... I'd see black or red specs in the morning. .... The pet store houses the birds in the same room as hamsters and guinea pigs... it's not a large room... so I'm wondering if they're fleas...?

- The pet store put those disk things on the sides of the cage... those "Bird Protector" disks. I've never read anywhere that those are effective or good, and tons of vet websites and bird best practices web articles state these are both ineffective and dangerous to the birds. So, I'm a bit troubled by this.

- What about the finches and canaries on the top shelf? What about the conures & cockatiel on the shelf below the budgies? I guess they think since they didn't share a cage with the budgies, that they're safe from the Scaly Face & Leg mites ... or Air Sac Mites. [ I guess because these are not air born? ] I suppose if the company's vet says there are Red Mites at work here... then they're going to need to evaluate the whole room again; as well as the other birds in the room. Because I believe that Red Mites will go all over the place and find birds to feed on. That, red mites don't just remain in one cage or transmit via contact.

In my opinion --- I believe this company is dealing with breeders that aren't holding up their end of the bargain. Sounds like the breeder got sloppy, wasn't diligent and let sick birds out the door, or let sick parent budgies breed. Things happen, but my understanding is that Scaly Leg & Face Mites and Air Sac Mites can be prevented.

Click to expand...

1. Using F10 disinfectant to clean the cages would make more sense to me.
F10 Veterinary Disinfectant

2. In my opinion, all of the birds in the store should be treated for mites.

It is not uncommon for pet stores to have on-going problems with scaly mites. The big box pet stores, in particular, buy from birdie-mills where the health and well-being of the adult birds are not addressed as they should be.

Burrowing mites are transmitted mainly in the nest box during feeding; i.e. during direct body contact from parents unto the chicks.

Special attention should be paid in pairs of birds and flocks if an infection with burrowing mites has occurred.

In most cases, however, a mite infestation in a budgie occurs between its 6th and 12th month of life; thus often shortly after the bird has been bought. However, there are reported cases where a year or more has passed between the time of infection and the appearance of the symptoms.

3. Mite sprays are not recommended. Ivermection Spot On Treatment is most effective. Sprays can easily get into a bird's eyes and damage them.

"Black Bugs" sounds as if there may be a flea infestation in the pet store especially if there are rodents in the same area in the store.

4. "Bird Protector" disks are not something I would ever recommend be used.

You have my admiration for all you are trying to do to educate the people at this establishment.

Please take a look at the link below for other resources which may help:

http://talkbudgies.com/general-budg...abused-mistreated-kept-unsafe-conditions.html*


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## BlueBirdNYC (Aug 26, 2016)

FaeryBee said:


> *
> 
> 1. Using F10 disinfectant to clean the cages would make more sense to me.
> F10 Veterinary Disinfectant
> ...


Thanks Deborah... I was really looking forward to your thoughts about those treatments (anti-mite disks, 8-in-1 mite spray, etc.) ... it's great to know all about these products should anyone try to encourage me to purchase them. [ Which that store has done that a few times. ] Thanks also for your thoughts about the "black bugs." That's been freaking me out for sure, but will just take it day-by-day. [ To anyone reading this... spread the word.... ---> **Buy budgies from reputable breeders.** ]

All of this is really great information... and thanks for the link. I've written to the local Humane Society, and two senators that are working on an animal welfare bill. Your links have been great so that I could review the latest status of things. (& laws etc.)

Thx...!   

[ p.s. -- you wrote earlier... "I'm very impressed at the steps you are taking to ensure the pet store takes the situations seriously." .... Thanks for that by the way. These forums and all of the great information & article(s) & resource links genuinely inspired me and provided me with information and guidelines to approach the store. ]


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