# Right Sodium Benzoate product



## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Hello All;

I'm new at this forum. I have two questions and hope you can help me.

1. My budgie (buddy) is male 3.5 years old. 2 days ago he gave 2 grams and yesterday I found some undigested seed in his poop. So I tested his stool today at avian vet and we found out there is AGY. His mood is ok eating playing normally and actually pretty happy bird. the vet said there is not much AGY fungus in his stool kind of beginning stage.

The vet said there is no enough dosage of Ampho B on their stock. So adviced me to get sodium benzoate. I looked forward on amazon but I'm not sure which one is right product.

https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Benzoate-Grade-Preservative-Additive/dp/B084D4YH1W

https://www.amazon.com/100-Grams-So...eywords=Sodium+Benzoate&qid=1613481911&sr=8-4

They both sodium benzoate but their cemical formulas are different. So I'm confused. Is the right product is E221 food preservative? and How much should I use it?

Second question is.

this morning I found little left part of my boy's cere is little bit lighter even white than before but not big part. I read so many articles that cere color changes is not good.but in every articals about tumors said cere turning blue to brown not white. So I'm little bit concern about it also he tucked his left leg his belly more than before. but no limping or else changes.I dont want him to be stress with xrays for no reasons so first I want to ask to you. turning white or light blue could be sympthom of tumor. I asked that vet also but she has no idea about turning white.  (I added his pic )

Thanks..


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*The Sodium Benzoate you want to use is the one I've linked below. This is the one I use for my own birds:

Human Food Grade Sodium Benzoate

With regard to your budgie's cere, it looks just fine - nothing to be concerned about. 

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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Thanks for the answer.

I will order same product. May I ask how many gram should I use for 100ml water bottle.

Oh glad to hear that his cere looks normal. Today it's not white as much as yesterday but I'll continue to keep an eye on.

Thanks again


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'd start with a little less than 1/8 of a teaspoon of the Sodium Benzoate to one liter of water and slowly work up to 1/4 of a teaspoon.

https://www.talkbudgies.com/article...orhabdus-budgerigars-avian-gastric-yeast.html

(Read the FIRST link) in the article listed above.*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Thanks FaeryBee;

I'll use sodium benzoate this way.

But other thing is still concerns me. Buddy thucks his feet to belly not limping or else just thucks more than before and his white part on his cere I think little bit changed. Do you think should I take xrays ? ( I added new pic I took this photo last night before giving his meds and he was looking unhappy tho.)
Is his cere looking brown or am I too worried?

Thanks


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*From what I can see in the picture I think his cere and beak are fine.

Don't worry about him tucking his feet.
Some budgies like to do that.*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Thanks FaeryBee,

I'm relieved. Actually today he looks better to me also.

I think I'm one of too worried parents


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*You're welcome. Better to be a concerned parent than one who is indifferent!! :hug:*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Hello Again;

I have a little bit update that concerns me. My boy seems happy eating and playfull but yesterday when he was flying around, just for couple of minutes his left foot strained. like foot cramps. he panicked so much.. while it's happining he opened his wings like he's hot after 'cramp' he was like unresposive for a moment. but eyes was opened and purching on my finger so still..after 3 4 minutes he recovered and flyed and played like nothing happend.
3 - 4 hours later when he was playing another cramp occured but this time his right leg. it was longer than 1st one same things happend and then he flyed and turning back to playing again like nothing happend. 

I talked my avian vet and we booked app. for this morning. She took xrays to see his leg for if there is any testical tumor or something but according to her there is no tumor or any growth on testicals. She said it could be vit A def. or streess cramps.

Can be stress cause to these 'cramps'? 

my boy seems happy but still tucked his foot sometimes. I'm not sure what to do...


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Did your vet recommend changes to your budgie's diet and/or nutritional supplements?

Nutritional Diseases

Tucking the foot is fine. I'd be more concerned about what you described as the foot "cramps" and his reaction to them.*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

When buddy came to me he eats only seeds but then I got harrisons and zuppreem fruit blend and tried too hard to change his diet. but not completaly changed. He waits to get seeds if I dont give seeds he goes to down of the cage and looking forward to find any seeds or else. and insist not to eat pelet food. But now I only give him seeds on the morning one teaspoon and sometimes evenings one teaspoon again. Other than he eats pelets. it is just like aggrement =).

So his diet not best but I tried to give him extra veggies. fresh spinach,dandelion, carrot red pepper etc... right now I'm adding guardian angel supplement to his water. 4 pinch for 100ml water.

The vet not reccomended to change his diet but she recomended a product that contains extra vit A. one drop to his mouth.

By the way we start to use ampho-b for his megabacteria. is medicine can cause this? the vet said no but after we start to use ampho he seems more silent.

I read the artical you send and it can be vit A deffiency also. because sometimes he sneez and cough also and about 3 months ago his foot joint swollen and then it recovered by itself. maybe it was gout. I'm not sure offcourse. Should I use extra vt A or do you think guardian angel is enough for him?

And yes I'm concern his "cramp" hope it's not related any neurological thing 

Update: just an hour ago he had another atack. it was like seizure that describes in here what will I see section. it was the same.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/seizures-in-birds

I'm really affraid of to not found out what is wrong with him. xrays shows nothing. if it was poisoning itis going to be worse evertime I think, but after seizures he playes and flyes like nothing happened.

I never provide him cuttle bonfish because one vet(not ours) told me that bones may contain metal and it can be cause poisoning so I never provide it but as I read calcium def. can cause these kind of seizures. what do you think about this bones?

Update 2 : he had a second seizure, I talked to the vet and she said stop to amhpo and keep an eye of him if he gets better.

just a week ago he was playing, singing happily but now he had 4 seizure within 3 days... I dont know what to do


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

So sorry this is happening, did the seizures start after you began giving something new such as the sodium benzoate, guardian angel, Ampho B, supplements etc? There are various things that cause seizures but if you can determine exactly when they began and what the bird had been consuming maybe that would be a clue. If the seizures are due to something that he is consuming, that one thing alone may not usually cause it but perhaps in combination with other things it could trigger a seizure. I have never heard of withholding cuttlebone due to metal poisoning, you need to provide a calcium source so if you do not want to use cuttlebone you can get mineral blocks that would provide a source.


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

We start ampho B last saturday and first 2 seizures was on last tuesday morning. (after 3 days from ampho) I did not give him something new except ampho b. But before first seizure he ate chard and today before seizure he ate red bell paper. I'm not sure if they had any effect with ampho B. ( I washed them very well). Today his water with guardian angel but before first seizure his water was just water. So I don't think it was guardian angel. I used it before many times. 

I wish I have known what cause this. 

I put his cuttlefish bone to his cage again. 

He sleeps today more than usual but now he is playing, but he seems more scary more than usual. he scares everything I'm not sure maybe he does not feel comfortable after seizures.


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Little update:

Last week we cut the amho-b treatment. after that he had just one leg cramps. He was doing so good. But this morning he had huge ataxia. his heads movement uncontroled his wings cramps, unconscious... I can not tell how it was horrible. I thought he is going to die. But then He back to himself after 10 or 15 minutes and for a while he just stood still. then started to fly. I call a vet immediatly but this time I called another one. we went to ER and he took xray and do some test with his blood (CBC). the vet said his liver little bit enlarged and it pressures to his lungs and heart but also it does not look so bad. According to CBC results some values goes down but phosphorus level is 6 times more than normal. I'm not sure what cause this. the vet said it can be some poisoning but not like lead or zinc. so he gave us just herbal based supplement to protect his liver. and tell me stop giving him extra suppllement or else (guardian angel included) but also he thinks, this ataxias caused by brain problems. So we have to wait 15 days to see if he gets better. if within 15 days he havn't get any ataxia or seizures we think it's liver problem but if he gets worse we think his brain is the main problem. I dont know what else can I do for him

I think we need prayers and good wishes for my boy


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

So sorry to read this, I know how awful this is to see, I had a bird years ago that had a brain tumor. My bird was initially put on a very strong anti inflammatory drug, please keep us posted on how things develop.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm very sorry to hear your little fellow is so very ill. 
If his quality of life is compromised, then the kindest thing for you to do is to allow the vet to help him along in his journey to the Rainbow Bridge.
Please let us know how things progress. :hug:*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Thanks,

he seems a normal budgie during day but 'seizures' or 'ataxias' or 'cramps' happen suddenly and after 10 15 minutes later he looks ok like nothing happened. except his left leg. his leg is weeker than before. I can see he can not use it properly So I'm always on allert mode. I'm working at home I can be with him all the time but in any case I set a camera for his room and I can always watch him via my phone in the kitchen or during night, full time I'm watching him.

Cody I want to ask something. How did you make sure about brain tumor. The vet we went yesterday said if it's brain problem MRI must be taken but in budgie size it's not suitable due to anesthesia he is not recommend that. is our vet wrong? if anything that I can do for my boy I do everytiing. Hope our new vet is a good doctor. But unfortunately there are only 2 avian vets in my city. which they are not members of Association of Avian Veterinarians (but they prefer to work exotic animals for years) 
but first one could not see the liver problem on xray and if second one miss something too I fell really guilty to not do best for my boy... he is not just an animal he is my best friend he deservs best... I really dont know what else can I do ..


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I know how you feel and I think you are doing all that you can for him, unfortunately because of their small size, options can be limited. In my case it was a process of elimination, observed symptoms, and relying on my vets decades of experience with birds in coming to the conclusion that it was a brain tumor. It is ok to get opinions from multiple vets.


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Update:

There is no any big ataxias or else but 2 minor instant leg 'paralysis'. these were like temporary paralysis. Before that happens he plays a lot flying everywere eating singing like a nomal happy budgie. but than suddenly his legs (sometimes right sometimes left but not both at the sametime) like paralysed. just 1 2 minustes later like nothing happened he starts to play again. in that moment he looks like 'I dont understand what is going on' he seems confused and scared.. but there is no big ataxia like last week since than. it was worst thing I have ever seen and hope it wont happen again. he is weaker then before I can feel it not weight but his legs specially left one. and sometimes he has minor balance problems it because of legs or brain I'm not sure.. 

I'm just giving him one time a day liver support supplement for enlarged liver. But I'm not sure liver problem cause these kind of problems.. additionally molting is on the way I think because he itching his head. poor baby..

yesterday he was sleepier a bit. but played also (hope it's molting). but it's strage that he is so scared everything. like door sound, car sound coming from outside, or my hands movement he was not like this before. and he develops new habbit he is not attacking me but he rips of my skin little pieces it's like obsession. he does that before but lately he is doing all the time. I'm adding my hands pic. my whole hands and arms like that, little scars. but he is not atacking just like nibble but rip of my skin I dont react not to scare him but my hands really hurts =).

other than he looks like normal budgie. But I'm not normal. since last week I wake up everyday is he going to die today and nights thank god he is still with me... I can not sleep well to watch him everytime. I can not go anywhere if something happend to him when I was outside. I feel like I have nothing to do and can not help him and it breaks my heart a lot a lot... I 'm thinking that all the time If his illness can be cured by medication and our vets couldn't find whats is the main problem is that means I could not give him best and I'm feeling guilty... but there is no 3rd vet around him that I can take him... I'm just so sad...


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

This is just a guess on my part but if it is a brain tumor his perception of his surroundings may be altered which could cause a change in behavior. Have you talked to the vet about giving him an anti inflammatory medicine?


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

When he was tucked his foot I was giving him melox 0.1 ml for pain killer (if his foot in pain) but in second day of his melox he got big ataxia last week. the vet said if it's liver based melox can be harmfull too and to said me to cut everything to see progress. since then no big ataxia but 2 minor leg problems.

But I'm not sure of that either. for now he just got only herbal based supplement. seed mostly sometimes harrisons and veggies everyday..

I'm not familiar brain tumor progress. My boy is just normal happy budgie except the moment of his leg problems. So if it's brain tumor how it's progress?


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Update: I found a real avian vet in another city which is 8 hours to drive. I called them and send them all the xrays and blood test results. They said it's really liver enlargement but it's not that bad but buddy's glucose level is extreamly low. which can cause all the seizures or cramps that I decribed. the vet advised me that one cup water and 1 teaspoon honey mixed and give my boy 3ml a day. I already gsve him 1 ml in the morning. and also ca level is low too so homemade yogurt and sesame seeds brocolli eggshell will be added his diet. AST result is low too which means accourding to vet the liver functioning is not well enough.

I research hypoglycemia and it's really can cause seizures. Hope it's just this we will see if he is going to be better. finger crossed..


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

Fingers crossed for your Buddy! Please be sure to keep us updated on his condition :fingerx:


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

buddy_budgie said:


> Update: I found a real avian vet in another city which is 8 hours to drive. I called them and send them all the xrays and blood test results. They said it's really liver enlargement but it's not that bad but buddy's glucose level is extreamly low. which can cause all the seizures or cramps that I decribed. the vet advised me that one cup water and 1 teaspoon honey mixed and give my boy 3ml a day. I already gsve him 1 ml in the morning. and also ca level is low too so homemade yogurt and sesame seeds brocolli eggshell will be added his diet. AST result is low too which means accourding to vet the liver functioning is not well enough.
> 
> I research hypoglycemia and it's really can cause seizures. Hope it's just this we will see if he is going to be better. finger crossed..


I hope these new measures help, that would be great not to have to be concerned about a tumor.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I hope the new treatments will take care of the problem for Buddy! 
Please continue to update us on his progress.
:hug:*


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Hello;

Little update this is 5th day of water with honey mix. his energy level definitely changed. He is more playfull more energetic chatter then before. at sunday morning just one little leg problem occured but not like others. he got himself quickly and started to fly again. I'm believing that the problem is glucose level on his blood. But there is one thing. he is eating less. his appetite really low. but his weight is still same 34-35 sometimes 33 gr. I'm little bit concern that he maybe hungry. But I can not tell that. 
I'm offering him mostly sugary thinngs like strawberry, banana, orange etc. but mostly everyday I' try to give him dandelion or spinach etc.his seeds and harrisons pelet is always in his cage. But he is not interested at all. Maybe sugary food make him to fell full could it be? 

Sometimes he is sleeping during the day but I think he is still recovering. but other that he is better than before but still tuck his left feet to his belly. I think it 's good progress.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

buddy_budgie said:


> Hello;
> 
> Little update this is 5th day of water with honey mix. his energy level definitely changed. He is more playfull more energetic chatter then before. at sunday morning just one little leg problem occured but not like others. he got himself quickly and started to fly again. I'm believing that the problem is glucose level on his blood. But there is one thing. he is eating less. his appetite really low. but his weight is still same 34-35 sometimes 33 gr. I'm little bit concern that he maybe hungry. But I can not tell that.
> I'm offering him mostly sugary thinngs like strawberry, banana, orange etc. but mostly everyday I' try to give him dandelion or spinach etc.his seeds and harrisons pelet is always in his cage. But he is not interested at all. Maybe sugary food make him to fell full could it be?
> ...


Good to hear he is doing better. Make sure you keep the vet posted because as things change the treatment plan may need to be adjusted.


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## buddy_budgie (Feb 16, 2021)

Hello;

Since last week there is no foot cramps seizures nothing ( yaaayyyy  )... his energy level is fine playing eating even gain weight. ( from 33 to 35 gr. ) we cut the honey water mix last friday but still I give him strawberry fruits etc. during day his sleeping frequency increased but not more than 20 minutes each sleeping sessions. I think he is better but still I can not leave him alone. So this is little bit hard for me. but at least he is better  Thank you for all comments and everything it was really hard times and your comments made me feel that I'm not alone.

Thanks.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

buddy_budgie said:


> Hello;
> 
> Since last week there is no foot cramps seizures nothing ( yaaayyyy  )... his energy level is fine playing eating even gain weight. ( from 33 to 35 gr. ) we cut the honey water mix last friday but still I give him strawberry fruits etc. during day his sleeping frequency increased but not more than 20 minutes each sleeping sessions. I think he is better but still I can not leave him alone. So this is little bit hard for me. but at least he is better  Thank you for all comments and everything it was really hard times and your comments made me feel that I'm not alone.
> 
> Thanks.


That's great news, hope the improvement continues.


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