# Is this a sign of egg laying? Advice please



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

I am concerned about Melody's health. A lot has happened in the last month (including moving away from London) and like before she has been constantly in breeding mode. I've tried to discourage the behaviour by keeping lights to minimum hours and with hormonal injections that I recently stopped because it wasn't solving the problem. The reason I've stopped her so far is because of her liver disease and 3 weeks ago I had a blood sample taken to see if she could finally lay but the results showed that she has low white blood cells and calcium (I am giving her calcium seldomly because it makes her more aggressive when the cuttlebone fish is in the cage). Also with further investigation the accident that happened between her and Cory months ago has been revealed as she was the cause and not him. She attacks him and then he revenges by attacking her :/ Anyway after the results I decided to give her some cuttlebone fish and to adopt a new male budgie to keep with Cory in order to distract her from wanting eggs but this happened:

Yesterday afternoon she was cleaning her feathers with her beautiful fluffy bum bum in my direction and I've noticed that it looked a little big bigger than usual, therefore and I checked it and felts it was swollen and soft. She keeps going inside of the food bowl and kicking the food out with her feet and staying there. Should I worry? Is she going to lay an egg or is it something wrong with the egg? I am scared of getting a nest because I am afraid with her condition she won't be able to survive if she lays, can someone tell me what I should do at this point please? Of course I don't want her to lay her egg (if she has one) on the floor but I would like to make her stop after the first egg if possible.

Thank you


----------



## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm confused by your post.

Is Melody in a cage by herself with Corey and the new budgie in a different cage together?

If Melody is aggressive, she should not be housed with any other bird.

My recommendations are:

Make sure Melody is housed by herself

1. Get a different type food bowl that she cannot use as a nesting site.
2. Give her the cuttlebone back - she needs the calcium at all times.
3. Limit daylight to no more than 8 hours each day.
4. Rearrange the cage each day or every other day and move it to a different room.

Do not put a nestbox in the cage. If she ends up laying an egg, remove it promptly and throw it out.

Make sure you have your Avian Vet on speed-dial and be prepared to get her into the vet if there are any signs of egg binding.*


----------



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

FaeryBee said:


> *I'm confused by your post.
> 
> Is Melody in a cage by herself with Corey and the new budgie in a different cage together?
> 
> ...


Hi  Thanks for replying so quickly!

After the episode of months ago I've divided them for a while but they kept calling each other and Cory got sick therefore I brought them both to the vet and he kept them together while Cory was recovering for 'company' (as Cory was always there with her when she was sick) and told me to keep an eye on them and when in the house to keep them together which is what I started to do. They are together when I'm home and separated when I'm out. During this months I've seen them having a huge fight 3 times and all 3 times seems to have been caused by me for some reason. When I put something between the bars she gets crazy and jumps on him. The most recent time that happened was around 8 days ago when I put the cuttlebone fish. You know there is the holder and obviously to fix it I need to have hands in both ends of the cage, this triggered her to attack him. Anyway after seeing that rehappening and them mating a lot during the day (and with a lot a mean 7-8 times a day!) I've decided to find Cory a distraction by getting another male and thankfully I've found one at the animal shelter in Scotland that should arrive within few days.

Should I throw the egg even if its fertile? Wouldn't she try to lay more if I do that? Sorry I'm asking because when I was a teenager we had a cockatiel who used to lay eggs a lot (without a nest) and even though my mum was taking them away she kept doing that.

EDIT:

Sorry I wrote fast and forgot to mention that keeping light at minimum hours is something I have been doing for months with no success. They have now been fully divided. She keeps calling him and when I let him out to reach her (him outside the cage and she inside) her head becomes are puffy like she's excited.


----------



## aluz (Jul 24, 2011)

It's really sad that despite the advice given here to have Cory and Melody separated that you have kept them together and there were more incidents which could have been easily prevented. 

The egg will not be fertile upon being recently laid, so you can easily discard it. 
Budgies have a predetermined number of eggs to be laid in a clutch and once the cycle is over the egg laying will stop.
The fact that you mention Melody being a chronic egg layer only adds to the problem, not to mention her calcium levels being low. 
She should never be housed with any bird, nor should she have been allowed to mate with Cory. Given all the problems she should be isolated from Cory and the other budgie.
I would also be wary of having Cory housed with the new budgie. Given the extended time where he suffered the abuse from Melody and the fact that he had viciously attacked her means that your new budgie is also at risk of being attacked.

I'm truly sorry for the whole situation your flock is in. If she has a soft shelled egg inside of her, then she will need professional assistance from an avian vet.


----------



## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Removing the egg, rearranging the cage and moving the cage into a different room is your best option.

Make SURE you have an Avian Vet lined up for help in case Melody ends up egg bound and/or with a prolapse.

It is very important that you separate Cory from Melody right away.

You can keep the two cages side by side but having him in with Melody is truly unfair to Cory.

I agree with aluz that after quarantine you will need to move very slowly with the introduction of Cory and the new budgie.
It will probably be best to house them separately and only give them out-of-cage time together for several weeks until you are certain there is no aggressiveness on either part.*


----------



## Therm (Aug 2, 2015)

I can't give you any more advice than what you have already been told. 
I just hope you follow it as you will continue to have issues if you choose to ignore the advice given. 
I can't imagine how stressful it is having your birds at odds like this, but you're not helping any of them, or yourself by letting Melody mate with Cody. 
Splitting them up- even if they flock call- is the very best thing you can do. 

I would also have considered re-homing Cody in your situation and focusing my efforts on Melody, but as you have now bought another bird into the mix, this could further complicate things. 

I really hope you are able to give these birds the help they need to be happy.


----------



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

aluz said:


> It's really sad that despite the advice given here to have Cory and Melody separated that you have kept them together and there were more incidents which could have been easily prevented.
> 
> The egg will not be fertile upon being recently laid, so you can easily discard it.
> Budgies have a predetermined number of eggs to be laid in a clutch and once the cycle is over the egg laying will stop.
> ...


The reason why they have been together under my supervision is because the avian vet recommended it as Cory got sick after being separated from Melody and thought the separation could have been a huge factor.

The new budgie will have a quarantine (in another room as the shelter didn't do any testing as it is a rescued bird and they want to avoid further stress to him and I would like to avoid infections to both of them) and will be slowly integrated in Cory's life, not put together immediately and carelessly. Hopefully the 2 will get along. Melody has never layed an egg before but she has been trying to do that for a very long time, that is why in London we used to do hormonal injections to her and Cory but they lasted 2-3 weeks max and having them doing a 2 hours trip every 3 weeks for another injection was stressful for them and me. The vet is closed on weekends and the emergency vet is not avian therefore I am not sure how to find out if it's a unshelled egg or if its the egg in process of forming as I never had happening before other than my cockatiel when I was younger but honestly I just saw them on the bottom of the cage and wasn't aware of the whole process before that.


----------



## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Again, I cannot reiterate strongly enough --

No matter what you were told about having Cory in the same cage with Melody - you NEED to separate them permanently now. 
Having them in cages next to one another is sufficient.
Separating them is the best thing you can do for them. It will prevent both mating and aggressive behavior.

Neither of Melody nor Cory are "ill" and they do not need to be housed in the same cage.

With regard to the egg, you are simply going to have to wait and see at this point. 
Until Melody begins to lay the egg, there is nothing you can do except be ready to get her to either the Avian Vet or Emergency Vet if there are problems.

Good luck.*


----------



## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

I agree with all the advice offered above :thumbsup: 

There's really nothing we can do unless you're willing to ensure that they are never housed together again, you have witnessed what sort of aggression Cory can exhibit and it is not fair to him or Melody to keep putting them together. Even if Cory is upset by the change, he will eventually learn to get on without Melody, but he won't if you keep putting them back together. 

I hope that Melody is just fine and suffers no complications with the egg :fingerx: 

Please keep us posted on how she is doing!


----------



## Therm (Aug 2, 2015)

Do you ever see a kid, acting up in a shop because it's parent won't allow the kid to have a sweet? And they go on and on until the parent relents and is like 'Fine, get a sweet!'. 
That's kinda what you are teaching your birds by giving in when you split them up, and keeping asking the avian vet about it- which contradicts the advice you are given here about them- is pointless. 
If you're going to go with the avian vets advice on how to house them, I'm not sure there's any point in asking for opinions here, as you already know and have been told before not to keep them in a cage together. 
The answer here is *always* going to be the same. The advice the avian vet gives you might also depend on what information they get from you- if they don't know the history they might not advise the same thing. 

Either way, if the admins here are offering you advice and you ask the avian vet, who disagrees, you're really going to have to pick one of the other to follow, as I feel otherwise your poor birds are going to be going back and forth forever. 
YOU need to make a decision based on what's best for them overall. Having seen the aggression, you should surely know what it is.


----------



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

Again I thank you all for giving me fast and detailed advice but I felt kinda attacked and treated as I was a careless mother who is being reckless about them. Of course I do follow your advice but when the vet tells me otherwise I follow his advice as he is their doctor and 'should' know best. I think that is normal and it is said several times that although forums can give advice, is always best to get with the avian vet for more accuracy. As Cory got sick and was hospitalized 3 days with tube feeding after the first separation and got better only when Melody joined him at the vet (who kept them in the same cage), the vet has adviced to keep them together at least when supervised. This aggressive episodes happened at a max of 4 times and were all promptly stopped by me, except for the first time. I am sure it didn't happen any other times because they are separated when I am not with them.

Tomorrow I'll ask for a visit with the avian vet for Melody's cloaca (as the emergency vet working at nights and weekends are not avian specialists :/) and tell him about the permanent separation, although I already mention him that I was thinking of doing that while getting another male budgie from the local rescue shelter to keep Cory company but at this rate I will speed up the process of few weeks. As for today, they have been separated as adviced.



Therm said:


> Do you ever see a kid, acting up in a shop because it's parent won't allow the kid to have a sweet? And they go on and on until the parent relents and is like 'Fine, get a sweet!'.
> That's kinda what you are teaching your birds by giving in when you split them up, and keeping asking the avian vet about it- which contradicts the advice you are given here about them- is pointless.


I do understand what you are saying and it is right in a sense, although I am not 'keeping' asking the avian vet about it. I followed your advice the first time, Cory got sick, brought Cory in and told the vet exactly what happened and a few days later brought Melody in 'cause Cory wasn't getting well and I knew it would have boost him up to see her, therefore he got better and I was advices what I mentioned above. Again as I mentioned several times in the thread I've decided already to divide them permanently but in order to stop Cory from getting sick again for the separation, I've decided to try to introduce a new male budgie as I remember how he happy he was to have another male companion at my friend's house in Japan before they joined me here in UK.


----------



## aluz (Jul 24, 2011)

No one said you were reckless.

I don't doubt your vet's expertise when it comes to the medical training received. However I do doubt as far as budgie behaviour goes.
Having the knowledge to diagnose and treat birds is one thing, the other is having actual experience with the species. And this comes with ownership.

I have had budgies as pets for almost 3 decades, I don't claim to own the absolute truth but I do have a very good understanding of the species (behaviours, body language, etc) and have a clear perception of the dos and don'ts. 
I will finish by saying that by going with the opinion of your vet you have risked the life of both Cory and Melody and if they are to share a cage in the future the danger will still be there and sadly it can end in tragedy.
The advice given here has always had your budgies' best interests in mind, for their own safety and welfare.


----------



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

aluz said:


> No one said you were reckless.
> 
> I don't doubt your vet's expertise when it comes to the medical training received. However I do doubt as far as budgie behaviour goes.
> Having the knowledge to diagnose and treat birds is one thing, the other is having actual experience with the species. And this comes with ownership.
> ...


Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

What happened in these 3 days:

They have been permanently separated from the day of this post. Melody has been taken to the vet who said that she doesn't have a soft shelled egg and whatever was there has been reassorbed. Has given me galastop for the moment, however he doesn't think it is going to stop the behaviour completely and has adviced to go for the implant in the future. In the mean time Cory got sick again (happens at separation, like last time), very very puffed and silent, has lost interest in eating and drinking and has dropped from 43gr to 35gr. This morning I let them out the cage for 20 mins together and he got back to be excited and chirping and eating a little bit (gained 1gr) but now that they are both back in their cages he has became silent and puffed again. Since the vet's advice would be the same to keep them together when supervised but you said that it would risk his life, what should I do at this point? Seeing him like this scares me and I am trying in every way to cheer him up and gave him tons of spray millet but doesn't work.


----------



## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Given the circumstances you have described with regard to Cory's behavior and subsequent weight loss --
could you allow them to be together the entire time you are with them? 
Meaning you would be there to supervise continuously so if there were any signs of aggression whatsoever you could immediately separate them? Would you be able to allow them to be out together like that for long periods of time (several hours) each day?

Then, place them in separate cages right next to one another if you have to go to work and/or at night for sleeping.

Perhaps this would help Cory through the transition until you have his new little male friend so he no longer has to be alone.

The main thing is that they are not left in the same cage together when you aren't supervising them to ensure there is no mating nor any aggressive behaviors.

Please be sure to let us know how things progress.*


----------



## lbeckman (Jun 26, 2016)

Hi. When you say you have kept daylight to minimum hours, how many are you talking about?

Do you keep music playing for them during the day? It might help Cory.

Best of luck with your budgies. I hope Cory adjusts soon.


----------



## violetskyblue (Jun 6, 2015)

FaeryBee said:


> *Given the circumstances you have described with regard to Cory's behavior and subsequent weight loss --
> could you allow them to be together the entire time you are with them?
> Meaning you would be there to supervise continuously so if there were any signs of aggression whatsoever you could immediately separate them? Would you be able to allow them to be out together like that for long periods of time (several hours) each day?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply FaeryBee 

What you are suggesting is exactly what I was doing during this months. They have only been together supervised since the first attack. Although I was advised here to divide them permanently Cory got as sick as he is now and therefore I was told by the vet to keep them together when I'm home (and separated in the same room but a little bit distant from each other when I'm not) and that is what I continued to do until few days ago.
Then after making this thread I completely divided them and put the 2 cages next to each other but this made him sick again to this extent  I've been home for most of the time in these days and Cory had me, my partner and music to keep him company. I gave him several choices of food which he was not interested at all and kept being puff and silent. He only gets chirpy and active when he is next to her (without bars in the way I mean) which is what I tried to explain before, although I think I was misunderstood. 
Honestly I don't really know why he is acting like this. She is right next to him in another cage but seems like in his eyes it's miles away, is this him being lovesick? I've noticed him being extremely close to her in the past as well. They used to have 2 wooden perch, a cotton perch and a swing and he was always sleeping immediately next to her, like if his life depended on it. I found it cute but now it is worrying  Later today I gave them 3 hours of time together because his weight dropped down to 34gr and didn't want to risk it anymore. He went up to 38 during that hours which amazes me.

His new friend will arrive next week, it's a 8 months old male budgie from a rescue center but will need to be in a separate room for a while because I need to do some testing as the shelter has done none.

Ibeckman They have light between 9am and 7pm and music has been playing during these days


----------



## lbeckman (Jun 26, 2016)

violetskyblue said:


> They have light between 9am and 7pm


I know it seems extreme, but the recommendation to get a female out of breeding condition is only 8 hours of light a day!


----------



## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Ally,

I'm sorry that I did misunderstand you initially.
I wasn't clear on the fact that Cory and Melody were together in the cage ONLY under your supervision and I sincerely apologize for that not reading your messages more closely.

How does Melody look today? 
Does she still appear as if she is going to lay an egg? 
As lbeckman mentioned, it would be best if you can limit her daylight hours to no more than 8 hours each day.

I've re-read your earlier posts in the thread and see where you indicated that the aggression occurred only when you were changing things around in the cage. 
Is there a way you can ensure both budgies are having out of cage time before you rearrange anything in the cage, add cuttlebones, etc.?

Given how sick Cory becomes when he's separated even from Melody, I do believe having them together whenever you are supervising them is definitely your best course of action at this point in time.
My concern earlier was about the aggression and possible mating. Since they will be under your supervision whenever they are together you will have control over intervening in either of those situations.

It sounds as though Cory has some obsessive attachment issues when it comes to being with Melody. 
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about budgie psychology to suggest how to deal with that problem. 

My concern is that even when your new budgie has arrived and has been through the quarantine period, whether Cory will bond with the new bird. 
However, we cannot predict the outcome so I intend to project only positive thoughts that Cory will love his new buddy and be very happy with him.

I'm so sorry you are going through this turmoil and that both Cory and Melody have issues you are having to deal with right now.

Please do keep us updated on both of their conditions.
I will have them (and you) in my prayers.*


----------

