# Lethargic and stumbling, but eating well and preening



## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Hello and thank you! I've read the information and it's a great help. But a problem has come up with my youngest budgie (bought late February) and I'm not sure what's wrong. Since Thursday evening, he's been extremely lethargic and weak. Thursday was the worst as he just wouldn't move at all. Subsequent days were slightly better. He has a little more energy and shows interest if I say put broccoli in the cage. I see him preening from time to time. But he seems very weak. He sleeps constantly and stumbles easily and often while moving or even while preening and eating. His wings often tremble too. Some tail bobbing while he's sleeping, which is getting more pronounced late today.

The confusing part is besides this, there's been very little sign of illness. No discharge from the cere, the vent is clean, the poop looks normal. His feathers are bright and vibrant. He has an amazing appetite (I feed them Roudybush pellets with some Zupreem Pure Fun). When he's not sleeping, he's at the food bowls, and he eats much more than my other 3 budgies. When they go to eat, he easily spends 10-20 minutes more than the rest eating.

If I offer him millet, he instantly wakes up and eats longer than the rest. The last time I gave him millet, he stood on my hand and ate, though he stumbled on my hand and eventually went to a perch to eat where he seemed to be steadier. I've stopped giving them millet because I noticed one of my other budgies spit up bits of millet taken from the same bag (Kaytee), and on another day another budgie spit up millet too, so I'm wondering if there might have been a problem with the millet.

My other three budgies aren't showing any signs of illness like the youngest. They're happy and active as usual.

The youngest did go through a similar period in April, when I believe he was molting. I don't know if he's molting again. Lately there's been a lot of feathers around the cage, but I'm not sure if these belong to him or the others. I didn't take him to the vet back in April because he recovered much sooner and within a day was back to normal. Since then he has slept more than the rest while being a bit puffed up, but until Thursday, he didn't show any sign of weakness. Whenever he woke up, he was always alert and energetic, even if he slept more often. This was how it's been for months, again, until Thursday. 

It was too late to call the vet when he started showing symptoms on Thursday, and Friday morning the secretary told me they wouldn't have an avian vet until Monday. The emergency clinic wouldn't have an avian vet until after Monday. So the plan is to call the usual vet first thing Monday. Still, I would really appreciate any insight or advice. Thank you very much and sorry for any bother.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

There are so many possibilities here that a trip to the vet is the only way that you will get a diagnosis and proper treatment. A few things that come to mind in which you might see the lethargy, weakness and stumbling are heavy metal poisoning, electrolyte imbalance, dehydration, nutritional issues, kidney and liver issues, & pituitary tumor. Does he eat pellets only, what do the droppings look like? Are you able to keep him in a separate cage until the vet see him? Are you sure he is eating and not just picking?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Cody said:


> There are so many possibilities here that a trip to the vet is the only way that you will get a diagnosis and proper treatment. A few things that come to mind in which you might see the lethargy, weakness and stumbling are heavy metal poisoning, electrolyte imbalance, dehydration, nutritional issues, kidney and liver issues, & pituitary tumor. Does he eat pellets only, what do the droppings look like? Are you able to keep him in a separate cage until the vet see him? Are you sure he is eating and not just picking?


Thank you very much! Yes, I thought as much. Symptoms for different problems seem so similar, so a vet visit is crucial here. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. It's torture watching him like this and not being able to do anything until I get him to the vet tomorrow. 

I would doubt it's heavy metal poisoning. He hasn't been in contact with anything that could cause that. I'm not sure I understand electrolytic imbalance. Dehydration I would doubt. I think I've seen him drink, the food bowls are next to the water silos, but I don't have the clearest memory of seeing him drink, if I'm honest. I hope it isn't nutritional issues. All my budgies have had Roudybush mixed with Zupreem, and vegetables clipped to the cage. I usually alternate between carrots, broccoli, bell peppers, cilantro, and more rarely cabbage and lettuce. I haven't had luck convincing them to try fruits, so it's been mostly vegetables, and they all luckily love the vegetables, especially carrots, broccoli, and cilantro. I can't be totally sure he's eating when he's at the food bowls, though that's what it looks like to me. When I gave him millet, though, I clearly saw him eat, so if he's doing the same at the food bowls, then he's eating. As for tumors, hopefully I'll find out when I take him to the vet. Thank you for your advice.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Don't be concerned about him not eating fruits, they are high in sugar, the veggies are better anyway. Is he falling off of the perch? It would be a good idea to put a folded towel at the bottom of his cage and cover it with paper towels so if he falls it will be soft. Please keep us posted on his condition after the vet visit.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Cody said:


> Don't be concerned about him not eating fruits, they are high in sugar, the veggies are better anyway. Is he falling off of the perch? It would be a good idea to put a folded towel at the bottom of his cage and cover it with paper towels so if he falls it will be soft. Please keep us posted on his condition after the vet visit.


Yes, I was never too bothered about the fruits for that reason. He's not falling off the perch, thank goodness, but thank you, I'll do that.

Sorry about the double post! When I take him to the vet tomorrow, are there any specific tests I should ask for?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

That depends on what knowledge the vet can gain by the physical exam, if the vet can determine the problem just by the exam then tests are not needed, if not, a blood test called a CBC would tell a lot about many things but is not disease specific, a fecal gram stain would reveal infections or parasites in the GI tract. This article will explain various tests 


https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Understanding-Avian-Lab-Work-Updated-version.pdf


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

That article is fantastic! I'll be sure to read it thoroughly before the vet visit. Thanks so much. 

My only concern would be with drawing blood for a blood test. For larger birds it makes perfect sense, but I'd be concerned when dealing with as small and delicate a bird as a budgie. That seems like something to avoid, unless absolutely necessary. Same for any tests that require anesthesia. But in any case, I'm getting ahead of myself. It's likely best to wait and see what the vet says. A physical examination (hopefully) could be enough.

A final question. I've always read that budgies should get 12 hours of sleep or more to make sure they get enough rest and avoid becoming hormonal. I've always given them 10 to 12 hours of sleep, but there have been nights when I've been behind on my work and ended up putting them to bed past 10 pm, at times around 11 or 11:30, to wake up the next day at 10 or 11 am. I live with my parents and my father (rightfully) pointed out this was unnatural and possibly harmful for birds. I've tried recently to make sure I get them to bed earlier, but I'm worried that unusual schedule could be a factor. While my other three budgies seem completely unaffected, not every individual has the same constitution or resistance. Do you think this could have caused the problem? It's definitely something I need to mention to the vet, but I wanted to ask here as well.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

With a small bird a blood sample is often obtained by a nail clip, a very small amount of blood is needed and this method is simple and quick, even x-rays can be done without anesthesia by a skilled team. If the vet determines that the bird is just too stressed just by be being there then the tests should not be done. Sometimes without tests it can be a guessing game as to what is wrong and the best treatment to be followed but there are times when tests may not be able to be done.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for the information! That makes me less nervous should any test be necessary.

Update: Just finished talking with the vet. Unfortunately, the secretary told me she was mistaken about the vet's schedule and that I should call Thursday morning in case they have an appointment. It's never been this hard to get an appointment with them before. Time to go on a Google search for other avian vets in the area, because I really don't want my budgie to wait that long.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

This link may help you just put in your city and state https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
Did you explain to the vet that this is a serious situation that needs attention now?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. Yes, I let the secretary know he's been quite ill and needed help urgently today. She was understanding and took my phone number in case someone cancelled, but they just didn't have an appointment today.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

It took calling about 10 clinics that either had an avian vet but were fully booked or said they had an avian vet on their websites but hadn't updated their websites to reflect that they didn't offer avian medicine anymore (and frankly admittedly my fault for not having a back up for situations like these), but I finally got my baby an appointment today for 4 pm.

I woke them up shortly after getting off the phone. He's still lethargic, weak and stumbling, which remains extremely worrying. But he shows interest in food. He went immediately to the food bowls and when I went to clip carrots to the cage, I tried bringing a piece of carrot close to him and he tried to nibble on it. He didn't bite down, but at least he showed interest. If I brought my finger close him, he would try to nibble softly on my finger, something he's done since he was much younger. After I finished clipping the carrots to the cage, he immediately went to the good bowls to eat. When he finished eating, he went up to a higher perch where he's been alternating between sleeping and preening, and very occasionally chirping softly. So still very worrying, but at least some hopeful signs.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm so sorry you weren't able to get an appointment until Thursday.
I know how frustrating that is. In the meantime, Cody has giving you excellent advise
I'm sending lots of prayers and healing energy for your little boy. (name?)

Have you been giving him Guardian Angel or Pedialyte? (Recipe for homemade pedialyte is in the link below)
Is he in an individual cage by himself at this point?

Keep him warm and give him Guardian Angel or Pedialyte in his water dish.
You can also soak a spray of millet in the solution and let him eat that.*

*Guardian Angel//Pedialyte//Pedialyte Recipe*

*I'd also suggest trying egg food for him. 
You can use store-bought egg food or make a boiled egg and mash up the yolk very finely for him.
If you have any pro-biotics for your budgies, make sure you sprinkle that on his food as well.

Flora BIrd Probiotic

The purpose of this forum is to promote the BEST PRACTICES in the care of budgies for their optimal Health and Well-Being*
*Locating an Avian Veterinarian*

*A Healthy Diet for your Budgie*
*Quality Seed Mix*
*CuttleBones, Mineral Blocks and Manu Clay Roses*
*Safe Foods for Budgies*
*The Truth about GRIT*

*Please take the time to read through the Site Guidelines, the FAQs, the Budgie Articles and all of the Stickies located at the top of each section of the forum.
Truly, the very BEST advice anyone can offer you is to take the time to read ALL of the stickies throughout the various Talk Budgie forums as well as the Budgie Articles we have posted.
(Stickies are threads “stuck” at the top of each forum sub-section)
These are great resources for Talk Budgie members and have a wealth of reliable information which will assist you to learn the best practices in caring for your budgies for their optimal health and well-being.*
*SITE GUIDELINES*
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*Before You Ever Consider Breeding Your Budgies*
*Guidance for Breeding Advice Threads*
*Cage sizes.*
*Essentials to a Great Cage*
*Dangers to Pet Birds*
*Resource Directory*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you FaeryBee and Cody for all the great information. Sorry, I hadn't given the name! The youngest is Napoleon but we've taken to calling him Nepo at times.

I was very lucky to get an appointment today from a different avian vet. We just got back from the appointment. The vet asked similar question to what's been asked here, if he had eaten anything unusual like paint, if he had hit his head, if he had been in a fight with the other budgies. The vet did a physical exam and said she didn't notice anything unusual with his heart or lungs. Weight was 33 grams. Based on my description of the problem, the vet told us to keep him with the other birds. I do have a separate hospital cage just in case, but in view of the fact that she didn't notice anything potentially contagious, the vet advised us not to separate them and cause him more stress. She believes it may have something to do with the change of weather, as where we live it was relatively warm until recently when the temperature dropped very suddenly the last few days.  The vet had said that, had she noticed anything in the exam, she would have suggested putting Napoleon in the hospital cage and administering Baytril in the water. Given that nothing showed up in the exam, she instead suggested adding Lafeber Avi-Era Powdered Bird Vitamins to all of their food. That could be quite good in addition to the pedialyte and egg food. I couldn't find it in local stores so I've ordered it online.

I completely forgot to ask the vet and just remembered now. The base of their diet is Roudybush Crumbles. I seem to remember reading on Roudybush's website that they don't want people adding vitamins to their food. Would LaFeber cause any problems? I don't think it would, especially as Napoleon is clearly under stress, but I thought it best to ask here where everyone likely has experience with these products. If necessary I'll call the clinic to be completely sure.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't notice I put this in the wrong forum! I should have noticed, it's really obvious now. I apologize for that.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Was your veterinarian aware when you spoke to her that Nepo's base diet is Roudybush crumbles?
Does he also get a quality seed mix and fresh vegetables?

Given Roudybush is your budgies base diet, I would be extremely reluctant to add additional vitamins into the mix. Too much of a "good" thing can cause problems.
My recommendation would be to use a good Avian Pro-biotic for them instead of additional vitamins.

Check with your Avian Vet to be sure she knows about the base diet of your birds and ask if she still believes that additional vitamins are required.

IF, in the future, you need to administer medication to one of your budgies, it is best to do it via syringe (orally) rather than in the water.
The Avian Veterinarian can instruct you on how to best administer medication via oral syringe.
When you give medication by water, there is no way of knowing how much the budgie is actually getting.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Yes, I've always given them Roudybush for the pellets mixed with Zupreem Pure Fun for the seeds. In addition, I clip vegetables to their cage every day. I'm always trying to find new vegetables they might like, but currently I rotate between carrots, broccoli, cilantro, bell peppers, and more rarely, lettuce and cabbage, not for nutritional value but more just for the sake of variety and the mental stimulation of seeing something different. Carrots, broccoli, and cilantro are clear favorites, though. (I heard from a relative that cilantro might be too strong for budgies? Is there any truth to that?) I usually also give them a little millet every day for a couple minutes, though for the present I've paused that since I saw my two other budgies, on separate occasions, spit up after eating millet from one Kaytee bag. I threw out that bag, I can't prove anything but I was suspicious after two budgies spit up and one was under the weather. It can't hurt to buy a different bag later on.

I really can't believe I messed up this much. I brought the bag of Roudybush Crumbles and Zupreem Pure Fun with me to the clinic specifically to show the vet. A vet tech came and spoke to us first, and I did tell her about their diet and show her the bags. Where I messed up was not telling the same to the vet herself.

In any case, the Lafeber's will take a couple days to arrive. I'll call the clinic tomorrow to clarify, as they're closed now.

Thank you very much for your advice, it's greatly appreciated.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Cilantro is fine to give your budgies.
Budgies LOVE spicy tastes. Even hot peppers!*

*Safe Foods for Budgies*

*I'd stay away from the Kaytee brand of millet in the future.
You have to ensure the millet has no mold on it and is fresh.
Also, I would suggest you give just one little ball of the millet to each budgie rather than letting them chew on a spray of millet.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. Is there any kind of millet you would suggest? I'll limit how much they get as well.

EDIT: Do you recommend a specific brand of avian probiotics? I'm a bit wary just because there seem to be a lot and I don't know which are better than others. I'm considering Avi-Culture-2-PLUS, The Finest, Live, GMO-FREE, 100% ORGANIC, Avian-Specific Probiotic/Prebioic/Enzyme/Amino Acid Blend but I'm not sure.

A similar question: reading up on Roudybush shows me they also advise against having a cuttlebone in the cage when feeding Roudybush. This I hadn't heard about. I've had two cuttlebones in the cage forever, in part because I have two hens. They all, male and female, nibble on the cuttlebone, though sometimes they'll decide to eat quite a bit. Is this dangerous? I know one of my hens likely needed it. A couple weeks ago she decided to lay three eggs. I was suprised because I've tried to avoid anything that could make them hormonal, and because this specific hen had prior to laying the eggs never been with either of the males in the cage. The eggs predictably ended up being infertile and she promptly forgot about the eggs, but the extra calcium was probably needed at that time. But is having cuttlebones at other times dangerous in addition to the Roudybush diet?

Sorry for all the questions and thank you again!


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*No, having the cuttlebone in the cage is not dangerous and I would not remove them.
Budgies know when their bodies need additional calcium. 
Sometimes they will decimate a cuttlebone in a day or two and other times they won't touch it for months.

I use Roudybush pellets and I always keep both a cuttlebone and mineral block in my budgies' cages.

The pro-biotic you linked is perfectly fine for your budgies.

You can try Living World millet or Brown's Extreme Natural Millet -- both are available through Chewy.com*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for the recommendations! 

As with the cuttlebone, I'm guessing it's also fine to give them vegetables in addition to Roudybush? Roudybush mentions on the website that you can add vegetables as a "minor" part of the diet. I was a bit worried. When one hen (Isabela) started laying infertile eggs, I knew I should supplement her diet but she's the most skittish of them all and I had never had any luck getting her to try egg food. However, since she already enjoyed vegetables, I decided to double up on the amount of vegetables clipped to the cage while she was laying the eggs in the hopes of getting her the additional nutrients she'd need. Specifically the carrots, since I've heard that broccoli is extremely nutritious but apparently can limit calcium absorption (the explanation I remember reading, is that broccoli has a substance which prevents the absorption of calcium from the broccoli itself but not calcium consumed from other foods, but I'm not entirely sure how true this is, there seems to be so much debate online about budgies eating broccoli and plants related to it). Isabela did eat more vegetables, which I hope was helpful, and since it was clipped to the cage, so did all the budgies. I'm wondering now if that might have been too many carrots to add to Roudybush? But then, none of the others exception Napoleon seemed to react badly to the increase in carrots.

I just got off the phone with the vet who saw Napoleon yesterday. It was a bit unusual to me that she didn't recognize Roudybush as a brand, but she looked it up online as we were talking. She couldn't find where it said not to add vitamins to Roudybush, only where it said that vitamins weren't needed, and I didn't have time to find the page during the short phone call. She didn't seem to think it would be a problem adding vitamins to Roudybush, but her suggestion was that, if I was worried about combining the vitamin and Roudybush, to switch them to Zupreem Pure Fun and the vitamins for a while. She thought a probiotic would be fine. Now I'm not sure about changing their diet when Napoleon is under the weather. I wonder if I should give him the Lafeber vitamins for a brief time, to see if Napoleon improves, and then stop to make sure they don't have a toxic overdose of vitamins.

EDIT: Zupreem Pure Fun and Roudybush have very similar vitamins. Has it been a mistake to mix these two?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*No, you haven't made a mistake in mixing the Zupreen and the Roudybush -- there is no problem that they have similar vitamins.
The budgies are only going to eat a certain amount of either or both. It isn't as if they are going to double their pellet intake.

You can give your budgies plenty of vegetables when they are on a primarily pelleted diet.*
*Safe Foods for Budgies*

*Is Nepoleon still lethargic and stumbling?

It sounds as if your Avian Vet believes your budgie is suffering from Ataxia.
As Cody indicated in her earlier post on this thread, the underlying cause can be many different things.
I'm surprised that the Avian Vet did not do a CBC and fecal gram stain at the very minimum.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for your advice! I was surprised the vet didn't do more exams. At the time, she seemed concerned over how stressed Napoleon became during the physical exam, which might have affected her decision not to do exams given that physical exam didn't reveal any problems, for good or for bad. If I'm honest, it also affected my decision not to ask for more, because I've seen my oldest budgie once become ill from the stress of being transported to a very distant vet a few years ago. Napoleon was more active in the carrier than he had been during the day in the cage at home, but after the exam, he was clearly stressed energetic.

When we got home from the vet, and during today, Napoleon is minimally better. He's clearly more alert at times. Last night he watched me as I was cleaning the cage, something he didn't have the energy to do previous days. Today he spent most of the day sleeping with his beak under his wing, like previous days. And he still stumbles when he tries to preen or move about. Earlier, I noticed brief tail bobbing, but that stopped after about 2 pm. Having said that, I've also seen him awake and sitting on the highest perch, less fluffed up than previous days and more alert. I'm still very concerned, but there are positive signs.

Looking up ataxia online, I don't believe the vet meant that. She asked about injuries, but didn't focus on that once I told her he hadn't been injured. The vet moreso seemed to think the change in weather had been hard on him.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Did you see this article:*

*Ataxia in Budgies*

*I honestly don't understand how the weather change would affect your budgie to make it lethargic and unable to balance properly.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Yes. Only a couple of the symptoms apply, though it might only need to be a couple to cause some illness or problem that in turn causes ataxia, so I didn't know what to think. It didn't seem like the vet meant ataxia, though.

From the page:

Standing with legs splayed wide for balance (No)
Using their beak to hang onto the cage or other objects to remain standing (No)
Uncoordinated movements of their head, wings or legs (Not of the head and wings, but definitely of the legs)
Lethargy or excessive sleepiness (Definitely)
Falling from their perch (No)
Difficulty breathing including stretching their neck and leaning forward to breathe, open mouth breathing, puffing out their cheeks with each breath or bobbing their tail with each breath (No, except for brief and occasional tail bobbing)
As for the weather explanation, I haven't heard about the weather causing illness either, though admittedly because illness from drafts and illness-like symptoms from sick molts occur, the explanation sounded plausible.

One ongoing positive sign with Napoleon is his appetite. He eats so much more than the rest. I've been watching more when he's at the food bowls and I don't think he's picking. He looks exactly like the other three when they eat, except for much longer.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Weather changes might cause respiratory issues. 
I just can't understand how it would affect a budgie neurologically (stumbling) unless it is something to do with the inner ear. 
If it were me, I would ask for clarification from the vet on exactly how she thinks the weather changes could be causing Neopolean's problems.

Neopolean isn't over-weight even though he eats more than the others, is he?*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. I'll need to call the vet tomorrow when the clinic opens.

No, he's not overweight. When they weighed him on Monday, he was 33 grams, which seems normal for an Australian style budgie. He should be about 7 or 8 months old.

Today Napoleon was more or less the same, lethargic and unbalanced when he moves but as I'm writing this he's eating. This morning, the Lafeber vitamin powder arrived in the mail and I added a small amount (less than the instructions indicated) to the food bowls. I didn't want to add too much given the possibility of vitamin toxicity, but I don't think for a few days it will cause them any problems. The budgies seemed to notice something was different with food because they, particularly Napoleon, avoided the food bowls for a while before decided to eat like normal. 

The probiotic was supposed to arrive today, but it seems it'll arrive tomorrow. When that comes, is adding it to the food fine?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Yes, you can add the probiotic along with the vitamin supplement to the food.

I agree with you that using the vitamin supplement for a few days to see if it helps should not cause any issues.

33 grams is a fine weight for your little fellow!*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for your advice


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*You are most welcome, always! 💜💜 *


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## Blessedwithpets (Aug 1, 2021)

hablandodebudgies said:


> Hello and thank you! I've read the information and it's a great help. But a problem has come up with my youngest budgie (bought late February) and I'm not sure what's wrong. Since Thursday evening, he's been extremely lethargic and weak. Thursday was the worst as he just wouldn't move at all. Subsequent days were slightly better. He has a little more energy and shows interest if I say put broccoli in the cage. I see him preening from time to time. But he seems very weak. He sleeps constantly and stumbles easily and often while moving or even while preening and eating. His wings often tremble too. Some tail bobbing while he's sleeping, which is getting more pronounced late today.
> 
> The confusing part is besides this, there's been very little sign of illness. No discharge from the cere, the vent is clean, the poop looks normal. His feathers are bright and vibrant. He has an amazing appetite (I feed them Roudybush pellets with some Zupreem Pure Fun). When he's not sleeping, he's at the food bowls, and he eats much more than my other 3 budgies. When they go to eat, he easily spends 10-20 minutes more than the rest eating.
> 
> ...


How’s your feather baby now?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for asking. It's hard to say. When Nepo's awake, he does seem more alert than before. I saw him climb to the highest perch to play with one of toys, so that's good. He used to move from perch to perch by climbing, but recently I've seen him fly more often for brief periods. 

But he's still... weak? He seems weak to me. If he's still, sleeping or standing still, or if he's flying, he has no problem balancing. But when he walks, whether along a perch or from food bowl to food bowl or to reach a toy or while preening, he'll stumble occasionally. After he stumbles a couple times, he'll fluff up and sit still for a bit. He's still lethargic and spends most of the day sleeping. Sometimes I see him on the lowest perch near the food bowls.

The vitamins arrived yesterday and the probiotics today, so I've been able to give him a little of both. Ever since I started adding these, he eats slightly less. I don't know if the vitamins and probiotic change the taste or if he is losing appetite. But because he normally eats so much more than the rest, he's gone from eating more than my other budgies to eating about the same as they do, except during the last meal before going to bed when he continues to eat significantly more, so I'm not worried about his appetite.

It is confusing because there are clear symptoms of something wrong between the lack of energy and general weakness, but absolutely no other signs of illness. No discharge from the cere, the poop is normal and the vent is clean, no sneezing, no difficulty breathing, and if his appetite decreased slightly, he still overall eats more than the rest. If I approach the cage with millet or vegetables, or even if I just replace the food in the bowls, he immediately becomes very attentive. So he does have some energy and clear interest in food. But it's just the sleepiness all day and the stumbling that are really confusing. I'm still trying to get in contact with the vet clinic to ask more about that.


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

Hello and a very late welcome to the forums! 

FaeryBee and Cody have given great advice and I agree completely. I hope things go well for your little one  🤞🏻 

Meanwhile, you’ve come to a great place to learn even more about the best of budgie care practices! Please be sure to have a look around the forums’ many budgie articles and “stickies” to ensure you’re up to date on everything! If you have questions after doing so, please be sure to ask as we’d love to help. 

Please keep us posted! 

Cheers! 👋


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. I really appreciate all the help and well wishes. I'm going to try to contact the vet I visited on Monday again tomorrow. I tried making an appointment today with my usual vet, but no luck until next week.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

The clinic we went to on Monday said the vet who attended Napoleon would be working next Monday, so I'm calling again then. So far Napoleon is... I think minimally better? He's slightly more energetic, but still sleeps most of the day.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*You are NOT a bother. I want to do whatever I ca to try to help you through the problems with Napoleon.
Napoleon is definitely not well. I can see that he is having trouble balancing himself and it looks as though he is also breathing a bit heavily.
Napoleon is a beautiful boy and I really hope you can get some more definitely answers when you talk to the vet on Monday.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. Is there any chance the vitamins and probiotic might help him in the meantime?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*The vitamins and probiotics will help with Napoleon's immune system which is a good thing.

The stumbling is a different story and I still haven't come to terms with why your vet thinks that the weather change is the cause of that unless he has a middle ear infection that was exacerbated by the change in weather.

If the breathing and/or tail bobbing become more pronounced, then I'd suggest using a WARM mist humidifier in the room with the budgies' cage.
You can add a drop or two of 100% pure Eucalyptus Essential Oil to the water which helps to open the airways.*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I agree with FaeryBee that Napoleon is not well. It is quite common for a bird to look well when at the vet when in fact they are not well and if no tests are done the issue will not be uncovered. I would show the vet the video where he is puffed up at about the 1:20 minute point in what you posted. In watching the whole video I am wondering if the problem might be in the feet and legs, perhaps there is pain in perching and moving and that translates into the stumbling. One thing that can effect the feet and legs is articular gout, which can be very painful, it effects the joints and visceral gout which effects the internal organs, here is some info on gout, it might be worth asking the vet if there is a chance that could be the issue. Gout in Birds | PetMD At the very least I would have the vet do a fecal gram stain test, all this requires is a fresh dropping, it is nothing invasive to the bird.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I appreciate all of the information! Without having spoken to the vet again, just based on her original comments, I think she interpreted his stumbling as a sign of general weakness that could have been provoked by various environmental factors, including possibly the change in weather. 

Regarding gout, it would explain the stumbling. Reading about it, it seems both visceral and articular gout have unusual poop as a possible sign, but his is normal. Still something to consider.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Ever since this started, I've been suspicious of that one bag of Kaytee. I can't prove anything without tests, obviously, but I've given my budgies millet for years, practically since we got them, and only two times in those years have my budgies ever spit up the millet. Once was I accidentally bought flavored Kaytee millet, which they spit up and refused to eat. And the next time was these past couple weeks, when Isabela (the yellow budgie from the video) spit up millet one day, and a few days later Condorito (the white budgie from the video) spit up millet. I give them millet just before bedtime, and both times they spit it up, each very briefly showed symptoms of illness, like puffing up, but both completely recovered when I woke them up the next day. It's just too much of coincidence to me that two of my four budgies spit up the millet for the first time in years, and then the youngest (and possible the physically weakest given the young age, who also loved millet the most and consistently ate millet the most) becomes this sick. It's speculation without proof and tests, which will come as soon as I can, but this just gives me a bad feeling.

FaeryBee mentioned Living World and Brown instead of Kaytee, which sounded familiar. Looking it up on Chewy, Brown is exactly the millet I used to buy for them (specifically BROWN'S Extreme Natural Millet Spray Bird Treats, 7-oz bag - Chewy.com and BROWN'S Tropical Carnival Natural Spray Millet Bird Treats, 7 count - Chewy.com), before switching some time ago to Kaytee because the millet sprays in Kaytee bags were bigger and so I _thought_ it was healthier. Imagine my reaction when I start researching Kaytee now and see a lot of people online refusing to buy it for their birds (as well as other Kaytee products for other animals) because of bad quality, problems with recalls, and so on. It's concerning, to say the least. It might or might not explain why Napoleon showed similar symptoms but recovered quickly on April 6 (they were eating Kaytee millet then too, but obviously a different bag), it might end up having to do with this problem, because I don't have proof, but still.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Oh! It just occurred to me. If it were gout, is it wise to continue giving him https://www.amazon.com/Lafebers-Avi-Era-Powdered-Bird-Vitamin/dp/B00025YUZO/ the Lafeber vitamin powder? The vitamin powder has D3, and I read that too much D3 can lead to gout.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

The vitamins you are using are a general vitamin and probably do not contain enough D3 to cause an imbalance, if you were using just a D3 supplement and over supplementing that might be a concern. If you are concerned ask the vet that told you to give the vitamins. Have a look at this article https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. Yes, it's a general vitamin with vitamin A, D3, E, K, B12, Niacin, d-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, and Choline Bitartrate. D3 is 125,000 IU per Kilogram, 15.6 IU per one measure (125 mg). Hopefully then the vitamin powder is fine. Thank you for the article, it's great.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I won't use Kaytee products at all because of all the bad reviews and recalls.
You could be right about that being the cause of Napoleon's illness but without testing you won't know for sure.
I'm SO sorry you are going through this.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. I won't be using Kaytee products anymore, either. The more I watch Napoleon, though, the more sure I am the problem is in his legs. If he has to fly from perch to perch, he seems to do so without any difficulty. But yesterday and today he's been so unbalanced when moving around with his feet. Luckily he still has a great appetite, and despite frequently losing his balance, he tries to preen etc. I'm hopeful that with the right diagnosis and treatment, he'll be able to recover.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Sending lots of love, prayers and healing energy for your sweet Napoleon.
I've thought from the beginning that his problem was something neurological -- although Cody's suggestion of it being Gout also makes perfect sense.
I hope the Avian Vet is able to properly diagnose the problem and get the right treatment protocol in place.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. I really appreciate how helpful you and everyone here have been. It could be neurological or gout, or anything else affecting the legs. Hopefully another vet visit with tests will reveal what the source of the problem. One question. I know I should be clear about how important a fecal exam and bloodwork are. I really don't want to make the mistake of leaving the vet this time without the necessary tests. Is there anything else I should ask about? Is there a specific way I should a request for a fecal exam or bloodwork, to make sure I explain clearly?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

You can ask that a gram stain test be done on the droppings and as for the blood work a CBC would be a place to start. Have you been able to get a good look at the bottom of the feet and check for bumblefoot? Do you know how much bird experience the vet you are seeing has? Have a look at this to help you better understand various tests Understanding Avian Laboratory Tests by Peter S Sakas...


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for your advice and the great article. With a blood test, you've mentioned it could be done just by clipping a nail? I have been looking frequently at Napoleon's feet. It could be a huge mistake on my part, but I haven't actually tried to grab him to look more closely. I didn't want to stress him, especially since I know he's going to be stressed when he goes to the vet again in these coming days. But from watching him in the cage, I can't see any sores on his feet that would indicate bumblefoot. I hope that it isn't it. I've always heard to have a variety of different natural perches to avoid bumblefoot, and so that's what I've done. I also haven't seen the white spots that would indicate gout. I've read online that in some cases some birds have a lot of small white spots, and in other cases larger white spots like lumps. I can't see any. But something is clearly wrong his feet.

I'm not sure how much experience the vet who saw Napoleon last Monday has. I spent a long time that morning calling every vet in our area and asking for an avian vet. Everywhere either had an avian vet but no appointments, or didn't see birds at all. This is a problem I've had several times in the past. I'm fortunate to live somewhere with several avian vets, even if at far distance from my home, but it's always near impossible to get an appointment. 

The website for the clinic I went to last Monday doesn't mention much information about their vets. The facebook page for the clinic does mention that the vet treats exotic pets like birds and reptiles. I was a little worried by the fact that she didn't recognize Roudybush at all when we talked about whether the Lafeber vitamins should be added to Roudybush. When I went to the clinic, she took Napoleon to another room, which was darker and Napoleon would be less stressed, to examine his heart and lungs. At least at the time, she seemed knowledgeable. If I remember correctly, she had said that with budgies being so delicate, any small factor could cause illness, even the change in weather. I took out my cellphone to ask for which vitamins she recommended and she pointed at the Lafeber vitamins in the Google search, because she thought Lafeber was more trustworthy since Lafeber worked with vets to make their products. 

It can be difficult to get an appointment at our usual vet clinic. I know for a fact one of the vets there is has significant avian experience, but I've never been able to get an appointment with him. Usually when I can get an appointment it's with another younger vet who according to their website treats birds and reptiles. It's not mentioned on the website, but he's mentioned owning a conure in the past. I had a budgie back in 2017-2018 whose beak kept growing unusually long. This vet examined that budgie several times, though as far as I remember never did any tests beyond a physical examination. He always concluded that the budgie seemed fine and said that he couldn't feel any growths during the physical exam. He seemed knowledgeable when we spoke to him. That budgie sadly passed away suddenly when she was about 8 months old.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I would try again to get an appointment with your usual vet even if it is weeks out and meanwhile work with the vet that saw him last time. It does seem odd that a vet that works with birds does not recognize the brand Roudybush and as far as the vitamins go Dr. Labfeber, now deceased, is the vet that developed many of the Lafeber products. Yes a nail clip can be the source of blood for a small bird, in my opinion any vet that is doing blood work on birds should be familiar with this procedure but I think you should ask the vet what method is used and if the tests are done in house. I know that my vet collects via a nail clip on small birds and the blood is directly collected in microhematocrit tubes and tests such as a CBC run in house so the results are available within 30 minutes, this takes special equipment and not all vets have this capability, some have to send the samples out to a lab. You can always ask the vet or the techs how much experience the vet there has with birds. I would start with the least invasive test which is the fecal gram stain, if that does not reveal anything then perhaps consider other tests.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for all the information, it's super helpful. I really appreciate it.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Napoleon's been a bit worse over the weekend. He tries to climb to the highest swings and perches, and he gets there. It's just very hard for him to balance. He loses balance very easily while doing anything, which I'm guessing is partially why he spends so much time puffed up and sleeping.

We just got back from the vet clinic. It wasn't really a productive visit. I explained Napoleon's symptoms, but the vet didn't know what the problem could be. She said they could do a fecal test, but said she wasn't comfortable doing a blood test on such a small bird. With a larger bird, she would be willing to try an injection, but with a budgie she was concerned it might hurt him. In fact, she said Napoleon looked so stressed she didn't want to touch him at all for the examination for fear of causing him more stress and possibly harming him. Instead she said we try giving him Baytril for a week, but she said she had to go check what was the correct dosage for a budgie. The vet actually recommended we take him to a different vet she said she had worked with, which turned out to be the younger vet who works at the usual vet clinic I go to. So I called my usual clinic, and the first appointment they had available was for Friday Oct. 22, so that's when we'll be going.

In the meantime, I was able to get a video of Napoleon's legs and feet while he was in the carrier. I think his feet and legs look fine, but something has to be bothering him.

Should I give him the Baytril? There's a dropper that has measurements starting at 0.1 and ending at 1, where it says ml/cc. The instructions are to give Napoleon 0.01 every day for ten days. Does this sound okay?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I don't understand why the vet would prescribe Baytril (which is a broad-spectrum antibiotic) when she doesn't know what the cause of the problem is.
Antibiotics only work on BACTERIAL infections.
Unneeded antibiotics may lead to future antibiotic-resistant infections.

I would suggest you put Napoleon in a small "hospital" cage and provide him with flat perches and ramps.

When you called your regular vets office did you ask that they contact you if there are any cancellations and explain that your budgie is rapidly getting worse?
Let them know you believe this a very serious condition and are concerned that the longer the wait for the vet visit, the greater the chances are the budgie will not recover as well.
Sometimes vet clinics have "emergency" appointments and since that is your regular vet they may try to accommodate you more than they would a "new client".*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I'll call my regular vet again. We did agree they would let me know if anyone cancelled since I called them last week. I'll try asking again if they might be able to help with an emergency visit.


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

Oiy... so sorry that he's going through this 
_Hopefully _the next vet will be better equipped to answer this?

Is there any possibility of finding another avian vet who may not be as close and making a trip out of it?



FaeryBee said:


> *When you called your regular vets office did you ask that they contact you if there are any cancellations and explain that your budgie is rapidly getting worse?
> Let them know you believe this a very serious condition and are concerned that the longer the wait for the vet visit, the greater the chances are the budgie will not recover as well.
> Sometimes vet clinics have "emergency" appointments and since that is your regular vet they may try to accommodate you more than they would a "new client".*


100%, this was how it was for me with my ferrets when they were not doing well


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you everyone. My regular vet clinic is generally good, with two of the three vets working there having a good amount of experience with birds. At least, when I've been there before, they've always been able my questions. It's just difficult to get an appointment, especially after COVID started. But if I can find a more experienced avian vet who can give me an appointment sooner, even if it's farther, I'll be taking Napoleon.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Locating an Avian Veterinarian*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

.01 is a pretty standard dose of Baytril, I have given it at that dosage many times.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for the information! I've used that page before, but I'll try again. Also, depending on whether I can get another appointment soon, I may briefly try the Baytril while waiting for another appointment.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Antibiotics Are Not Always the Answer*
*
I'd recommend asking your regular vet office their opinion before you start giving the Baytril.*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

You are giving the Baytril right into the mouth correct? If there is a bacterial infection you should see some improvement within several days.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

It would be Baytril into the mouth. I'll see if I can talk to my regular vet about Baytril.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I know this is repetitive, so I apologize, but I have to ask, any opinions on how his feet and legs look?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*It's very hard to see his feet and legs in the video. When you look at him, to you see any swelling or redness on the bottom portion of his feet?
Any swelling in his legs?
Poor baby is obviously in bad shape! *


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Shoot, I was hoping the video showed his feet better. But I really appreciate all your help. Every time I look at his feet, they seem fine. The feet don't seem swollen, they look the same as my other budgies' feet. Same for redness, I just don't see any. I took a screenshot from the video.


It's not the highest quality screenshot by any means, but the feet look fine. The nails could use a trim, which my regular vet does. Certainly not like he should be in pain, but something is clearly bothering him from how unbalanced he is. A relative mentioned he might have fallen in the cage and hurt himself, and on another forum where I've talked about this issue someone mentioned it could be an issue comparable to splayed legs or a problem with his hips. I can't be sure without talking to another vet, but it's something I'll ask about during the appointment.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

As you know the nails are too long and that can interfere with the ability to perch or stand properly, in the center of the bottom of the left foot I think I see a piece of what looks like maybe a piece of loose skin and the one rear toe looks a bit red, dark, but it could be just the lighting or shadow on it


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for your advice. I just got off the phone with the clinic. They were very understanding the more I explained and offered Napoleon an appointment tomorrow morning, which is a huge relief knowing he won't have to wait long to be examined.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Thank goodness!! I’m so glad to hear this!
We’ll be looking forward to your updates after his appointment. 💜💜*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Of course and thank you to everyone here for all the help and support


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I think the appointment with our regular vet went well. He examined Napoleon in front of me. Before the vet took Napoleon out of the carrier, he noticed Napoleon was breathing hard. The vet listened to his chest, checked Napoleon's legs, weighed him, and took some samples for a fecal exam. I explained everything to the vet. I told him Napoleon had been 33 grams when he was weighed Oct. 4. The vet said Napoleon was 32 grams, but he wondered if that might be due to a difference in the scales being used. There were several poops on the paper towel I put in the bottom of the carrier, and when I told the vet Napoleon ate more than my other budgies, the vet said he believed Napoleon had to be eating and not playing with or picking at the food, because he said that a bird that wasn't eating wouldn't have pooped that many times in the short while Napoleon had been in the carrier.

He said that, if Napoleon were older, he'd be concerned about tumors, but with a younger bird infections were a more likely problem. He didn't think the wobbliness was neurological or due to a fall. The vet said he pinched Napoleon's toe while examining his feet and Napoleon immediately responded, which was a sign that the nerve there was functioning correctly. The vet said this all could be due to heavy metal toxicity, but he thought that was very unlikely in this case, or that it could be a congenital problem with the brain. The vet seemed mostly to think this was an infection. The vet said that Napoleon did seem to breathing hard when the vet listened to his chest. The vet mentioned the possibility of a viral, bacterial, or fungal infection. He thought an infection might be causing Napoleon to breathe harder. He said to try the Baytril, and if I didn't see any improvement by Tuesday, to call him. He said the clinic would call me later with the results of the fecal exam.

Today was kind of a failure to actually administer the Baytril. I was unsure about my ability to give the Baytril to Napoleon with the dropper in his beak, and even more afriad of the Baytril getting into his lungs, so I put the drop on a small piece of millet. He did eat most of the millet, but I could still see about one seed of the millet shining with Baytril. He immediately seemed to notice a difference and did not want to eat the millet with the Baytril. By the end, he was actively running from the millet, so I'm not happy about stressing him out anyway. I got him to relax a little with a piece of millet without Baytril afterwards, but I don't think it'll work to give him the Baytril on millet tomorrow. I'm still nervous, but I want the best chance of recovery for Napoleon, so I'll try to be calm and focused to give him the Baytril in his beak.

I emailed the vet to ask since I forgot to ask while I was there, but is it okay to continue the probiotic & vitamins while giving Baytril? I did tell the vet about the probiotic and vitamins early in the visit, and the vet said these were fine to give. However, when the vet much later said to give Baytril, I forgot to follow up by asking if I could continue the probiotic and vitamins with the Baytril.

All this while I've been wondering if Napoleon has been molting, whether his being unwell was caused by a particularly bad molt or whether his illness was itself causing a molt. Today I was watching him and he does seem to have some spiky feathers on his head.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm glad you were able to get Napoleon in for a visit with your regular vet.
That vet seems to be more knowledgeable about budgies and explains the possibilities and reasoning in a more logical way.
I hope the Baytril does the trick for your little fellow. 

Administering medication via oral syringe

I'm sure Cody will be by to give you hints on her method.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. Hopefully Baytril helps.

Yesterday was a very difficult day. Napoleon was just so weak and tail bobbing quite a bit. Thankfully he was still eating and even chirping. I live with my parents and they love the budgies so much. My father has owned birds before, so together we managed to give Napoleon the Baytril. Today Napoleon is still weak, but tail bobbing less.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

The method I use is as follows: I give the meds in the morning while it is still fairly dark and the birds have not yet begun to be active because the room is still dark and they are still covered. You have to have a nightlight or something so you can see a bit what you are doing, let your eyes adjust to the darkness of the room before beginning. Make sure you know where he is sitting in the cage , if there are other birds in the cage this may be a bit more difficult. Very slowly and quietly open the cage door reach in and gently cup your hands around him and remove him from the cage, do not grab with one hand if at all possible, this may be more difficult if the cage has only a small door, sit down and place him on a table or your knee, during all this time I find that it is best to use only the amount of restraint with your hands necessary to keep him from flying off, the more gentle you are the less he will fight and squirm around. Once you are sitting administer the meds into the mouth and return him immediately to the cage and keep the lights off and let him relax. This may work out better if he is comfortable sleeping in a cage by himself because when you put your hand in the cage to remove him you will not be spooking the other birds, once that happens you need to back off and try again later, the last thing you want is to try to catch him when all the birds are in a frenzy. My birds are not hand tame and I have used this method hundreds of times, make sure you have the meds ready in the syringe before you begin and stay calm.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. My birds aren't hand tame either, so this is very helpful.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

It's hard to say how Napoleon is doing. We've given him the Baytril three times now: Friday, Saturday, and today. Friday he was the worst day of all. He was eating from his food bowls, but a bit less than usual, and when I offered him millet he showed no interest in it. Saturday and today he's been eating more normally. Saturday he seemed much better, far from normal but better than Friday. He was sleeping a lot, but more energetic and more interested in everything around him. Saturday he was interested in millet and ate for a while. He even tried to climb on my hand like he used to while eating millet, but he quickly lost his balance. Today he was better than Friday, but less energetic than Saturday. I keep going back and forth. On the one hand, he's only had Baytril three times, it might not be showing the effect yet, and to the extent it might be having an effect, Napoleon is better Saturday and today than he was on Friday. On the other hand, the vet told me to call the clinic if Napoleon wasn't better by Tuesday, and while it's not Tuesday yet, Napoleon is far from his usual healthy, active, playful self. My other budgies haven't been sick before (thank goodness), so I'm not sure: should I give the Baytril more time to show if it's being effective?

On a related note, I haven't been able to find a flat perch, so I bought a thick perch from a local pet store and my father sawed part of the top of the perch off and sanded it down. The perch looks really nice, with the top of the perch being half flat and half rounded. Unfortunately Napoleon was spooked when I put it in the cage. I didn't want to make him stressed, but I genuinely think this perch should be more comfortable for him. I'm hoping the stress of seeing something new in the cage won't make his condition worse.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I think the Baytril needs more time to show if it is going to make a difference, it is a broad spectrum antibiotic very commonly used in birds. Did the vet call you yet with the results of the fecal exam? If there is no improvement by Tuesday even though the vet thinks the metal toxicity is a long shot I would ask about testing for it. If the vet thinks the test would be too stressful ask about treating for it.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Do you have Amazon Prime?

Flat Bird Perch
*
*Wooden Platform Perches*

*Put anything new outside the cage where Napoleon can see it for a couple of days.
Then, hang it on the outside of the cage for a couple of days.
After that, try putting it inside the cage.

Generally, if a budgie has a bit of time to become accustomed to something new before it is introduced into the cage, then he will feel better about it being safe when it does come in.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the advice and insight. 

No, I don't have Amazon Prime. I had checked on Amazon, and I almost bought some of those, but I guess with things like perches that I know they'll be chewing, I like to see it in person to feel more sure it's safe. 

Yeah, I messed up putting the perch so soon in the cage. Napoleon has calmed down, and I can even see him occasionally looking curiously at the perch, but he was really nervous for a while.

No, the vet hasn't called back with the results. If they don't call tomorrow, I'll call to see. I tried calling Friday but nothing. I'll talk to the vet about heavy metal toxicity. With waiting for Tuesday, should I call Tuesday morning, or wait until a bit later Tuesday to see how he's acting before and after Tuesday's Baytril dose? I don't want to wait too long to call but I do want to give the medicine enough time.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I would call early morning in Tuesday, you never know how long it will take for someone to get back to you. Metal toxicity is usually treated with injections of calcium EDTA but there may be an oral treatment as well. From what I know with the injections the response is usually pretty quick.


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## srirachaseahawk (Sep 5, 2021)

I would give the medicine for the instructed duration and call in to your vet daily to give them an update as to how he is.
If it’s a good vet, they will very much care.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thanks everyone! It's great advice


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I've emailed the vet this same video. Just in case, here's a short video of Napoleon eating some millet before I covered the cage tonight. Ever since Friday, I've been thinking his beak looks way too long. I can't believe it took me this long to notice. I've been reading that sinusitis could be a cause of overgrown beaks, which would go along with it being an infection like the vet says (would it be an infection Baytril can treat?) Then there's fatty liver disease, and Napoleon does have trouble breathing and a loss of balance, but I really hope that isn't the case. One side of his beak also seems to have a white thing? I'm not sure if it's peeling or a bit of food or what it could be.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*His beak is too long and I'm surprised the Avian Vet did not comment on that fact when you had him in for his check-up.

Here is an article regarding Hepatic-Lipidosis (Fatty Liver Disease)
Hepatic Lipidosis

How much millet are you giving Napoleon on a daily basis?
Millet is high in fat content.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

The vet didn't comment on it during the check up, but he did respond earlier to an email I sent about this. He agreed the beak was too long. He said he didn't want to trim the beak until we saw if he was responding well to treatment and feeling better, but he didn't directly address my question about fatty liver. I sent another email and I'll bring it up with him when I call tomorrow. Thank you very much for the article. It's been about two weeks that I haven't given Napoleon any millet at all. Prior to this sickness, I would usually let him and the rest of the budgies eat millet for a few minutes before bed. I've never put the millet in the cage without holding it and I've never let them eat freely, only from my hand for between 5-10 minutes. I was aware of how much fat it had, but I was hoping that wasn't too much.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Update: I called the vet this morning and he returned my call just now. The vet says the gram stain came back normal. Because Napoleon didn't get a full dose on Thursday, when I tried to give him the Baytril on a piece of millet instead of directly in the beak, the vet says it can take a little longer to improve. The vet says to continue the medication until the end of the week and see if Napoleon improves by then.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I spoke to the vet again today. Napoleon is mostly the same, not worse, but not better. He occasionally seems a bit more energetic. For example, Saturday he briefly was singing to one of the female budgies, and yesterday he managed to scratch his head with his leg a couple times, something he couldn't do previous days. But these are brief moments and he's still sleeping most of the day and loses his balance easily. I've explained this and more to the vet. I asked whether given the lack of improvement a different medicine would be better, or whether we should do additional tests, or if the Baytril needs more time to show effects. He said antibiotics typically last 10 to 14 days and they typically have birds on the antibiotics for that long. The vet would like me to continue the Baytril until next week. Tomorrow makes one week of giving the Baytril. Should Napoleon have shown more improvement by now?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Hard to say about improvement, if a bacterial infection is not the issue then improvement would not be expected also if it is some type of stubborn bacterial infection and the Baytril is not the right antibiotic for it then again little improvement would be expected.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*When I had to give Baytril to one of my budgies, it took about 10 days for me to see a noticeable improvement.
However, as Cody indicated, Baytril may not be the correct antibiotic if it is a more serious bacterial infection. 
If the symptoms are due to a viral or fungal infection, antibiotics don't work for those.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thanks to everyone for the advice and insight! Also, I asked my vet about twice regarding probiotics, and this is why. The vet said it was okay to give probiotics with the antibiotics, just give it 2 hours separating the one from the other. But I recently was looking at the website where I bought the probiotic (Avi-culture-2-PLUS, The Finest, Live, 10-Strain, GMO-FREE, 100% ORGANIC, Avian-Specific Probiotic/Prebiotic/Essential Enzyme/Amino Acid Blend), and it specifically says, "Do not use in conjunction with a regimen of antibiotics as this probiotic will weaken the medication as it instead kills the multitude of beneficial bacterium in this probiotic and it will not be as effective in wiping out the pathogenic bacteria it was prescribed for in the first place." I genuinely did not remember this last week when we started giving Napoleon the antibiotic. I kept giving the probiotic because I had read about how common yeast infections could be with Baytril, but now I'm wondering if this is partially why the antibiotic is taking longer to be effective. The vet still says it's fine, but I've stopped the probiotic until we finish the antibiotic.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*The Avian Vets I've been to have indicated that pro-biotics should NOT be given in conjunction with antibiotics.
Everything I've read has said the same. 
I always advise members not to give pro-biotics until the full course of antibiotics has been completed.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

That was certainly a mistake. I'm concerned now I may have made another mistake. Today when I went to prepare the dropper to give Napoleon the Baytril, the dropper was empty. I'm very concerned because I'm not sure if I have or have not given Napoleon the full amount. On Thursday Oct. 16, I put a drop of Baytril on a piece of millet to see if it would be possible to give the medicine to Napoleon without having to restrain him and put it directly in the beak. So I know that Napoleon could NOT have taken all of the Baytril. However, I was sure I should have more than I did, at least enough for the weekend. The clinic I usually go to is closed until Monday now, so in the meantime I've called the clinic which first treated Napoleon. I explained the situation on the phone, and the secretary offered to ask the vet working today his advice. The vet working today does not treat birds, but since he was only the vet I could get in contact with, I asked the secretary to please explain the situation to him.

The vet working today said that giving the medicine for the correct number of days is more important than the exact dosage amount, and since we started administering the medicine in the beak Friday Oct. 17, the clinic is giving a refill for enough Baytril until Wednesday, as that would make the 10 days total. When I was initially given the Baytril, I was told the dropper had a little more than 10 days' worth in case I made a mistake. I would greatly appreciate any and all advice. I've already emailed my usual vet clinic explaining the situation, but I don't think I could in contact with any avian vet on this short notice on a weekend.

Napoleon has been slightly better today and yesterday. While still unbalanced, he loses balance less often while preening, he's sleeping less and more alert when he's awake. I don't want to give him too little and risk him backsliding, but I also don't want to give him too much.

EDIT: Just got back from the clinic. They gave me the doses in individual droppers, one per day.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Just continue giving the Baytril as prescribed, if a dose was missed you can extend the number of days that he is getting it.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for the advice. I gave him the Baytril today. Since the clinic gave me individual droppers, I at least know that today's amount was exactly right. I'm more concerned about possibly having given him more than I was supposed to, since I ran out of Baytril before I thought I would. Is what the vet said right? Is it more important to give the Baytril the correct number of days than it is to give the right quantity?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

There have been times when I have used Baytril and the dose was .02ml twice a day, so I don't think a little extra one time will make any difference. It is important to give the antibiotic for a specific length of time because it takes a certain amount of time to fully kill off the pathogenic bacteria.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I think I gave him extra once, but with it running out ealier than expected, I wonder if it was more than once? I was sure it had been the 0.01 before today, though. In any case, thank you very much. If 0.04 a day is fine in some cases, then it should be okay. And Napoleon has definitely seemed more lively recently.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Update on Napoleon: He was doing very badly Sunday and Monday two weeks ago when I last posted, unable to perch, etc. I managed to get an emergency visit at my usual vet, who decided to try a two injections of doxycycline, one last week and a second this week, and metacam administered for ten days. Napoleon was doing really well after that! It was nothing like the slight improvement with baytril. He was still unbalanced, as the vet said Napoleon wasn't out of the woods yet, but he was active, he wasn't sleeping all day anymore, and he was chirping so much! 

Unfortunately, early today, I heard a loud noise from the cage. He was still with my other budgies, as the vet said not to separate them unless the others were bullying him. When I went to check on them, everyone seemed fine. I even picked up Napoleon and looked him over, but I didn't notice anything at that time. 

But when I later got a better look at him, he seemed to have a cut on his leg. I suspect one of my female budgies, who's been laying eggs (which I've replaced with dummy eggs) might have bit him. I both emailed and called my vet, but the secretary said the vet who treated Napoleon wouldn't come to the office until Thursday. For the moment, I've separated him in a small hospital cage. 

Should I do thing else to make him feel comfortable? He's currently sitting in the hospital cage, but he seems uneasy and scared, and hasn't eaten. Is there anything I can do to help him until Thursday's vet visit?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't see anything, is it on the leg or toe, is it bleeding?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

It's not currently bleeding. It's small, thank goodness


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

He may be a bit traumatized from the ordeal and also may not like being in the hospital cage. I would just keep him separate and see if he seems to be in any pain from the wound, see if he will eat a small piece of millet.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. I agree, he seems to be upset from the new environment. Earlier he kept making a really unusual noise, but only when approached by the other female budgie. I have some millet in the hospital cage along with his usual food, but he's been clinging to the side of the cage since I gave him today's dose of metacam.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Cover the top and three sides of his cage to help him feel more secure.
Play some music for him and just let him rest for now.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. I covered him and put the cage near the other one so he could at least hear and see the other budgies. He calmed down a bit and ate some of the millet. I know too much millet is far from ideal, but given what happened, I was just happy he was eating. He seemed calmer later in the day.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

hablandodebudgies said:


> Thank you very much. I covered him and put the cage near the other one so he could at least hear and see the other budgies. He calmed down a bit and ate some of the millet. I know too much millet is far from ideal, but given what happened, I was just happy he was eating. He seemed calmer later in the day.


*
That is perfect. You want to ensure that he continues to eat and drink.
Sending lots of love and healing energy for your little guy. *💜💜


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you. I was wondering, however. As I said, I have one hen who's been laying eggs that I've been replacing with dummy eggs. I don't know for sure because I didn't see what happened in the moment but I suspect she might have hurt Napoleon given how he was running from her. This morning she was a bit angry towards her other cagemates, and they were also avoiding her. If this is because the egg laying is making her hormonal, would it best to isolate her until this passes?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Yes, if she is aggressive towards others it would be best to separate her. How many cage mates does she have and what are the genders?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Two others, another female and a male. The two girls have always bickered, but it's never been serious, and she gets along well with the male. She had recently been pecking Napoleon if she got an opportunity, but only after his sickness got worse. Originally she would let Napoleon feed her and sing to her, and even followed him expecting to be fed. I've read that budgies will sometimes chase off a sick member of the flock, so I thought it was that.

I'm still unsure about separating her, if I'm honest. I may have overreacted when I wrote the post. She did open her beak at the other female, but the other female went to a different perch and it didn't escalate beyond that. I'll be keeping a close watch on all of them, in any case.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Good news! Napoleon's vet visit went pretty well. The vet said he could hear Napoleon breathing better during the physical exam, not fine yet, but Napoleon's not breathing as hard as he was before. He had lost weight to 30 grams at our visit last week, but after last week's visit and doxy injection, Napoleon's back to 32 grams. The vet also checked the injury on the toe. While the injury is a stress that Napoleon did not need right now, the vet said it wasn't sprained and the bone wasn't injured. There's a little discharge from Napoleon's nose, but not much. 

The vet gave Napoleon his second doxy injection and we scheduled a check-up for next week. The vet said some birds are okay with two injections, while others end up needing three or four, so we'll decide what to do based on Napoleon's condition next week. Does anyone have any experience with doxycycline injections? Is that the process?

Today Napoleon still seemed uneasy in the hospital cage, but he was eating more than yesterday and even chirped a little. He had been chirping quite a bit a couple days after the first doxy injection, but stopped chirping for a bit after the injury, so it's nice to see him feeling a bit better.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

That's good news, so glad he has gained weight and the toe injury is not serious. The frequency of the doxy injections depends on what is being treated, under some circumstances it is given as often as weekly as in the treatment of Chlamydiosis (Psittacosis).


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much!

I ended up keeping Napoleon in the hospital cage from the Tuesday when he was bitten, to Sunday. I was uneasy about returning him to the cage with the others, but over the course of the week, I noticed he just wasn't eating as much as he used to. Throughout all of this, the most hopeful thing was that he kept eating so well, and it made me nervous that he was now eating less. So Sunday I decided to put him back in the cage with the others. So far, there haven't been any major problems, and I'm keeping a very close watch on them.

Napoleon's appointment at the vet this week also went well. The vet said he didn't hear the raspiness in Napoleon's breathing that he used to hear, though he said Napoleon was breathing faster than usual. The vet thought that might be stress. Napoleon was again 32 grams, so he didn't gain weight, but he also didn't lose weight either. The vet also said he checked Napoleon's ability to grip with his feet. Previously Napoleon had a very weak grip, but during this last visit the vet said Napoleon was gripping better. Napoleon is still having difficulty balancing, but the vet says the neurological symptoms accompanying infections could take some time, possibly weeks, to completely disappear. 

The vet had two recommendations: a third doxy injection to make sure we get rid of the bacteria and a beak trim. The vet had previously agreed that Napoleon's beak was too long, but hadn't wanted to stress Napoleon while he was sick. Since Napoleon was now doing better, the vet believed the beak trim could help at this point. Next week I'm due to call the vet with an update to see if a fourth injection is necessary.

Everything going forward is dependant on how Napoleon's condition progresses. For now, I'm seeing a lot of positive signs. While wobbly, he doesn't lose his balance as much as before. He can do a lot more that he couldn't before. I see him frequently scratching his head with his leg, which before used to either be a struggle or just impossible for him. Preening is less difficult for him as well, and he's able to open up his tail and preen his feathers, where before he would lose his balance if he tried. When he walks on the bottom of the cage, he's again not losing his balance as much as he used to. And periodically throughout the day he'll chirp, not as loud as before he was sick, but he is chirping more often where before he wasn't. Progress is slow but noticeable.

I'm wondering how much I should push for a fourth doxy injection. I read that in cases of psittacosis doxy is given for 45 days, which would be more than the four weeks the vet has mentioned. Then again, we don't know if Napoleon has psittacosis or something else. We do know that he is clearly responding to the doxy.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Sending lots of prayers and healing energy for sweet Napoleon. 💜💜*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much!

Napoleon continues to improve, though at a slow pace. Multiple times I've seen him chirping to one of my female budgies, or chirping and bobbing his head to the mineral block or to a perch, something he used to do when he was healthy. He's sleeping less, and preening and chirping much more. He's still unbalanced, though.

I'm also concerned that three times I've seen him sleeping on the bottom of the cage: last Sunday, last Wednesday, and Saturday. He'll place his beak under his wing and just nap. Occasionally he goes to the dummy eggs in the cage for the egg laying female, and I've seen him touch the dummy eggs with his beak and bob his head at the dummy eggs, like he used to do to his toys when he was well. I genuinely don't know why he does it. After he wakes up, he jumps back up to the perches and is back to normal (or what is normal now during his recovery). When I emailed the vet about this, the vet said to monitor Napoleon and send an update Monday.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Sleeping on the bottom of the cage is usually a bad sign so I'm really concerned, but at the same time, he is significantly more energetic now than he was say at the end of October.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I have no experience with older budgies sleeping on the bottom of the cage.
I have, however, had budgies that would lay on their tummies on a platform perch, the top of the cage or a seagrass trapeze.
My guess is that since Napoleon is still having trouble balancing, he chooses to sleep on the bottom of the cage (like a baby budgie would!) because it is safer and more secure for him.

He does look more active and happier in the last video you posted.

Please update us on Monday after you speak with Napoleon's vet.*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

He sure looks happy. I am thinking the same as FaeryBee regarding the sleeping at the bottom. Do you have any platform perching areas in his cage? Something like in this link Wood Side Platform (Small)


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much to everyone!

Napoleon's still pretty young, I only got him this February, so I'm guessing he's between 10 and 11 months old. I should also add, Napoleon never sleeps at the bottom of the cage at night. I've checked after I cover the cage, and I find Napoleon either on a middle perch or somehow on one of the highest swings, the ones he can't seem to reach during the day. He only sleeps on the bottom of the cage for periods during the day. When I first emailed the vet about this, the vet had also mentioned that Napoleon might nap on the bottom of the cage because of trouble balancing.

I was so worried this might mean he was taking a step back in his recovery despite his improvement in other regards. If it is trouble balancing, I can definitely make changes in the cage to help. The vet did mention that neurological symptoms from the infection could take longer, even weeks, to disappear.

I tried to get him a flat perch before. Since I couldn't find one at a local store, I bought one very large perch and my father sawed part of it off so it would have a flat surface. It's been in the cage for weeks now, the other budgies use it, but Napoleon only once attempted to use and otherwise ignores it. That said, the platform perching looks a like a great idea. I'll try that and see how Napoleon reacts.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*You can make additional modifications to your cage to accommodate Napoleon's problems in balancing.*









Remedial Solutions for Birds with Disabilities


Remedial Solutions for Birds with Disabilities Using ramps, ladders and platform perches can be very beneficial for budgies with special needs. Please see the link below: Remdial Solutions for Birds with Disabilities




www.talkbudgies.com


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

That site seems great, thank you!


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Just finished talking to the vet. I explained everything I had noticed in Napoleon, improvement with some weakness late Sunday, and included some videos. At this time the vet isn't worried about the napping at the bottom of the cage, because it could be due to balancing issues. However, while I was cleaning the cage Sunday, Napoleon jumped to the bars of the cage and from there to another perch. While he was on that perch, I noticed some tail bobbing.


The vet said to keep an eye on that, because tail bobbing could be a sign of respiratory problems. If it continues, the vet thinks we should make a new appointment to decide whether Napoleon needs more antibiotics or further tests.

I've been watching Napoleon closely all day because of that. I've noticed sometimes when he sleeps, he doesn't seem to have a tail bob or if it's there, it's extremely minor.


Other times, I do notice a tail bob.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*In the second and third videos, it does appear the tail bobbing is more pronounced than just "normal" breathing.
Are you using a warm mist humidifier in the room? You can put a couple of drops of 100% pure essential eucalyptus oil in the water to help keep the airways open.

I believe, after seeing the videos, the vet is going to recommend Napoleon has another vet visit.*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I see a slight bob, a tail bob is not always due to a respiratory infection, it can also be due to abdominal issues or any swelling of internal organs. There is not much room inside so if anything swells it takes up the space that the lungs and air sacs occupy and that effects the breathing because the expansion capability is reduced.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for the advice and insight! 

It's been great seeing Napoleon happier and healthier lately, so if another visit is necessary to get him back to 100%, that's what I'll do. I just hope this doesn't mean his condition is worsening at all.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I know we have talked about this before but metal toxicosis is still in the back of my mind and if the vet recommends any blood work I would want to include a test for that, more so to completely rule it out .


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I agree with Cody 100% regarding that. I've always thought the same thing.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

The vet indeed recommended another visit. I scheduled it for tomorrow afternoon. Thank you very much for the advice, I'll be sure to mention it. The vet has wondered about heavy metal toxicity before, too. I just wonder why Napoleon seemed to improve so much after the doxy injections if it was metal toxicosis. He was doing very badly at the end of October with so much weakness and difficulty moving at all, and now he's still not 100%, but he is more energetic. So it does seem like the three doxy injections did something. Though maybe it could have been both an infection and toxicosis?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Here is a good article on metal toxicosis it describes several methods of treatment, Diagnosing and Treating Heavy Metal Toxicosis in Birds


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much! I see it says that antibiotics are used on a case by case basis, mostly to rule out secondary infection. So, if toxicosis is involved, I guess it would have been toxicosis in addition to an infection causing Napoleon's symptoms?


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

It's possible, I hate to think that he might have some toxicosis that could be successfully treated and treatment is not being given for lack of testing. Sometimes if testing is too stressful treatments can be given based on suspected issues providing the treatments would do no harm if given.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

A small update on Napoleon: The vet visit went pretty well. The vet listened to Napoleon's chest and said he didn't hear any congestion. Only that Napoleon was breathing rapidly, which again the vet thought could be due to stress. Napoleon's grip hasn't necessarily improved, but he also hasn't weakened. The weight was the same at 32 grams. His right foot is a bit weaker than the left, but that's likely due to the bite. The vet suggested choanal cultures. The vet said we could do another doxy injection. The vet wasn't sure if another injection was necessary given that Napoleon seemed to be improving on his own, but also didn't think that another injection would do any harm either. We decided on the cultures and the injection. After the vet visit Napoleon was fairly lethargic and sleepy that day, but the next day he was lively and energetic, so I'm guessing it was only the stress from the vet visit. That was last week. 

Napoleon still has balance issues, but he's chirping often and head bobbing to the toys in the cage. The last couple days Napoleon has been a bit less energetic, though not drastically so. Today the vet called with the results of the cultures. The lab found a staph infection. The vet asked to a sensitivity test and the lab said that the staph infection was susceptible to the doxycycline. For now the vet's advice is to continue to monitor Napoleon. The vet doesn't think any more injections should be necessary, but he says to contact the clinic should we notice Napoleon getting worse.

Does anyone have any experience with staphylococcal infections? I've been reading online but I guess I'd appreciate any insight and advice. And of course thank you to everyone in the thread for all the insight and advice throughout this entire situation!


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't have any experience with staph infections in birds but given the results of the culture it's good that he got the additional doxy injection, glad to hear he is doing well.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm in the same position as Cody. No experience with Staph infections in budgies.
I hope Napoleon continues to improve. It sounds like him having the second injections was definitely for the best.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for your advice. Up to now, Napoleon has had a total of 4 injections.

A problem came up just now. I noticed Napoleon spending more time at the bottom of the cage yesterday, and today I noticed his foot, the one that was bitten weeks ago, looks like this. The smaller of the two toes doesn't seem to have any nail and there's some red (dried?) blood. I've emailed the vet with the photos but I'd appreciate any advice for how I can help Napoleon.

ETA:
I just spoke to the vet. The vet said to separate Napoleon until it heals and monitor him. He also recommended Medicam.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I would expect that toe to be ok by now since it happened weeks ago, might he be picking at it?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

No, I'm sorry, I didn't explain well. There was a bite that happened weeks ago. But the nail was fine then. That has since healed. I never saw him picking at it.

Today I noticed he was practically missing a nail, on the same foot where the previous injury happened.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

You and I are in almost the same situation. I got home from the office to find one of my guys has some issue with his left foot/leg and will not put any weight on it, he was fine this morning. I called the vet and I am giving him .01ml of Metacam for now, and keeping him separate and quiet, if it does not help he will have to go in, he was just there yesterday for a beak trim!


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

All the best to your little one! Hopefully he'll make a full recovery!


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Thanks and Napoleon as well, he has been through so much.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Poor little Napoleon. He just can't seem to catch a break!
Kisses and love to your baby.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Hello everyone! A quick update. Napoleon has been improving, slow but steady. He's a still a bit wobbly, but his movement has improved dramatically. He can reach the highest swings in the cage, and can even preen and nap while balancing on the swing, when before he lost his balance preening on a regular, lower perch. He's more active, he never sleeps at the bottom of the cage anymore, he explores the rest of the cage top to bottom and can balance on most perches, and he's chirping more. He's set to go for another check up next Monday, just to make sure everything is okay.

A separate problem has come up, however. While Napoleon had been sick in October and November, one of the female budgies had begun laying eggs. I replaced the eggs she laid with dummy eggs as instructed by my vet. This hen was usually a bit bossy to the other budgies, but she was never really aggressive. In fact when Napoleon was well she would accept food from him and he would chirp to her. Starting November and December, she started to get aggressive with Napoleon. She would stare him down and peck at him. It was really strange, because ever since I bought Napoleon back in February 2021, she was never aggressive to him at all until about November. I'm thinking the change was caused in part by her laying eggs and being more hormonal, as well as the natural instinct to drive away sick members of the flock.

My first thought was to separate them, so I put her in the hospital cage. During this time she seemed to lose interest in the eggs, so I removed the eggs from the cage. I kept her separated for about two weeks, then decided to try to have them in the same cage again. The first week back, at first, went really well. She didn't pay much attention to Napoleon, but she also wasn't bothering him. All four budgies seemed to be living together again in relative harmony. By the end of the first week back, she was spending more time at the bottom of the cage ripping up the paper, which made me worried she was going to start laying eggs again. During the second week back, she would occasionally make Napoleon move from perches and peck at him. At this point, Napoleon was a bit stronger and he would peck back, so initially she would retreat. But this Sunday she laid an egg, Tuesday she laid another egg, and today she was again preventing Napoleon from approaching the food bowls and staring him down again. I didn't want to wait for it to get worse, so at least for now, I've separated her again.

I know sometimes two budgies just don't get along and need to be housed separately. If that becomes necessary, that's what I'll do. But part of me would like to keep my four budgies together. The three older ones all clearly have some affection for each other. Napoleon is the youngest and does well with the other two budgies. And when this specific female budgie isn't laying eggs, she usually at worst ignores Napoleon or actively seeks him out as a mate. Napoleon for his part used to chirp and head bob to her when he was well. Since she started being aggressive, he's become fearful of her, so now he just tries to avoid her. Like I said, before Napoleon became sick and before she started laying eggs (both things happened in October and November), she was never aggressive to him at all. I've tried reducing the daylight hours and rotating the perches in the cage to discourage egg laying, but that hasn't seemed to have discouraged her. I do plan to talk to the vet about this when it's time for Napoleon's visit. I'd really appreciate any advice on how to handle this situation. Thank you very much for all the advice already in this thread.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Good to hear Napoleon is doing well. It does sound like your hen is being nasty due to her hormone levels, this is also putting stress on Napoleon. How much light do the birds get on a daily basis? You can try reducing it to only 8 hours of daylight a day but that would mean that all would be subject to that if you keep them together. I have a hen that is a chronic egg layer, I tried everything including hormone shots, nothing stopped her and finally after she prolapsed, it ended up that I had to remove her from the flock. She now lives with one other female away from all the other birds, out of sight and out of hearing them and so far she has been ok. You might end up having to keep her in a separate cage if you can't stop the egg laying. The vet may want to have a look at her, I would call and see if you can bring her in when you take Napoleon.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much for your insight! How has your budgie that got injured been?

I probably should reduce daylight hours to 8. They were initially getting 12 hours, which I reduced to 10. I should take her to the vet as well. 

In addition to that, I've heard that there are different kinds of paper to put at the bottom of the cage? I'm currently using paper towels and the hen since September and October has started ripping up the paper towels. I think she sees the paper towels as a nest. Napoleon also sometimes walks on the bottom of the cage looking for pieces of food that dropped from the food bowls. I think that's contributing to the problem, both making her more hormonal and possibly making her see Napoleon as a threat. But I'm not sure what kind of paper I should buy to put at the bottom of the cage.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

It does not really matter what paper you put at the bottom, when a hen is broody she will rip up anything. If you take her to the vet the vet will probably confirm that she is hormonal, but you already know that, and perhaps talk about a Lupron injection to calm the hormones. It may be a bit too soon in the big picture for the injection, try more of the daylight reduction first. 
Thanks for asking, my guy that appeared to have the injured leg turns out to have arthritis and a probable heart condition. I did end up taking him back to the vet. He goes in every 2 weeks for a beak trim because of a liver issue it grows like crazy, and the vet and I noticed that he seems to be getting more and more easily stressed based on his rate of respiration and I have noticed at home his breathing is sometimes to rapid and he does not have any respiratory infection. He is still on the Metacam and now a heart medication and is better, at least from a visible assessment, he's 8 years old so for a budgie he is an older bird.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you, I'll try to see how she does with less daylight. 

I'm glad your little guy is doing better. He seems to have a number of issues, which makes sense as an older bird, but it's great that you're giving him the best care.

Napoleon did well at the vet today. He's up to 34 grams, and the vet said his breathing was better than at any previous appointment.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*So glad to hear Napoleon is doing better now!!*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much, and sorry for taking so long to reply! It's been a busy couple of weeks. 

Today there's been a new issue. Napoleon is still doing well, but Isabel, the budgie who has been laying eggs, is not well. When I uncovered her cage this morning, I saw she had laid a new egg (for a total of 7 now). There is something red hanging out of the cloaca. From what I've read this could be a prolapse? I know how serious this is and that it is urgent to get her to a vet as soon as possible. I called my avian vet immediately, but the clinic didn't have any appointments for today. The soonest would be an appointment for tomorrow morning and so I asked for that appointment. The other option is to go to an emergency clinic right now, but the emergency clinics around me have very few avian vets, and those few are usually completely booked. I've brought other parakeets to the emergency clinics near where I live in the past, and I've never been able to talk to an avian vet there. 

I'm hoping that a visit first thing tomorrow morning isn't too long a wait. Apart from the red mass hanging from the cloaca, Isabel is acting normally. She's eating normally, she moves around the cage normally. She seems alert and not lethargic. She does spend most of her time laying on her eggs, but she's been doing that ever since she started laying eggs. On previous days I'd see her occasionally take a break from laying on the eggs to play with one of her toys, but I haven't seen her do so today.

I also notice Isabel has a bit of a spot in her chest, but I'm not sure what that could be.

Thank you again to everyone here for all the advice given during these months. This is the first time I've seen this situation with my female budgies, so I would really appreciate any insight or advice.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*You need to get Isabel into the Avian Vet. 
In the meantime, keep her in a small hospital cage and keep her warm.
Don't let her out to fly around. 
If you can get in to your Avian Vet tomorrow morning, that would probably be best rather than the Emergency Vet since you have no way of knowing what their experience level is in dealing with small birds.

Did you ask your Avian Vet clinic if there is anyway at all they can work Isabel in as an emergency appointment today?*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much! Isabel is currently in the hospital cage. I'll be taking her to the vet early tomorrow. I did try again and again to explain that it was urgent and Isabel needed help as soon as possible, but the secretary said that in cases like this they would refer people to the emergency clinic. I asked if the secretary knew any clinics experienced with birds, because the emergency clinics I had visited in the past had never given me an appointment with an avian vet, but she couldn't say. She could only give me a recommendation based on my location. I know the clinic she mentioned and I've been there before. Like I said, I've never been able to talk to the one avian vet they have on staff, and I told the secretary at my usual clinic this. But she said it just wasn't possible to make an appointment today.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I do think she'll be fine until tomorrow morning. Keep her as quiet as possible.
Please let us know what you find out when you take her to the Avian Vet tomorrow.

Sending lots of love and healing energy for sweet little Isabel.*


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

It is very important that the prolapsed tissue does not dry out. I had this happen to one of my birds last summer, if you can get this product at a pharmacy or something similar you can put it on the exposed tissue. If you cannot get it call the vet and ask them what you can put on the tissue until they see her, if it dries out that is not good.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much to everyone for the advice


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Is she a chroinc egg layer or is this the first time she has laid eggs? The stress of laying the eggs is what has caused the prolapse and made the inner tissue weak. The vet will reinsert the tissue and may want to hospitalize her for a couple of days to see if the tissue stays in . With my bird the tissue popped out a second time so the vet had to stitch it back in. When she came home she was on 4 different meds along with hormone injections to calm things down. She now lives with another feamle, she had to be separated from the rest of the flock because it was too stimulating for her.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. For most of her life, she hasn't been a chronic egg layer. I bought her June 2018. It was about September 15, 2021 that she began laying eggs for the first time. She laid about three eggs late September, then stopped a good month or so. Since then, she'd lay eggs for a while, stop for a while, lay eggs for a while. The most recent egg laying started early January. She laid three eggs while still being housed with my other three budgies. She's been separated from my other three budgies for a couple weeks now due to issues with aggression, but since being separated she was still broody, chewing the paper at the bottom of the cage, and ultimately has laid four more eggs for a total of seven. 

Thank you for the insight. Hopefully all goes well at the vet tomorrow. I called the vet and asked if I should apply anything to prevent it from drying out. The secretary spoke to one of the vets and said to either put her in a room with a humidifier or in the bathroom with the hot water running to make a more humid environment, and to keep the area where she is very clean, but the vet didn't recommend applying anything at this time.

On a positive note, since I started posting today, I've seen her playing with her toys a couple times. I hope it's a good sign that she's acting more or less completely normal and has the energy and desire to play.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

When this happened to my girl she was flying around like nothing was wrong, she flew by me and out of the corner of my eye I thought I saw something red, so I got hold of her and sure enough, tissue about the size of a pea had popped out.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Oh, wow, that would have really scared me


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

hablandodebudgies said:


> Oh, wow, that would have really scared me


Me too, I had read about cloacal prolapse and seen pictures but never had any first hand experience with it until then, fortunately the vet said bring her in immediately.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Hi everyone. So, at least for now, it seems like the situation has been resolved. 

I took Isabel to the vet yesterday. He initially wanted to reinsert the tissue and put two stitches to keep it in place, but after examining Isabel, he noticed she had an egg she hadn't finished laying, which was a big additional complication. He said it was important for her first to lay the egg, and then they could reinsert the tissue. The vet planned to start by giving her an injection of Metacam to deal with any inflammation and Oxytocin to see if Isabel might lay the egg sooner. The vet asked me to leave Isabel at the clinic for the day and pick her up before they closed. When I picked her up, she still hadn't laid the egg. The vet said to call first thing in the morning to let him know if she had laid the egg. On the car ride home, I heard her chirping or whimpering, and a large red mass came out of her as if she was trying to lay the egg then, but that red mass for the most part went back inside, except for the small lump. When I got her home, though, she seemed relatively normal. The red lump was still outside, but it wasn't any more protruded. During the afternoon and evening she was eating, preening, and perching normally.

Today in the morning she still hadn't laid the egg, so I called the clinic and updated them on the situation. The vet said to bring Isabel to the clinic immediately. The staff asked me to leave her at the clinic and that they would call me later after the vet examined her. Several hours later, the vet called. He said that they had waited in case Isabel might relax and lay the egg, but that didn't seem to be happening. So the vet first attempted to gently massage the egg out, but that made Isabel more stressed and he noticed the egg was going further in. He said they sedated Isabel, and then were able to collapse the egg and extract it. Once the egg was out, the tissue went back in by itself. The vet said there hadn't been any need to use stitches. Since she's been laying so many eggs, the vet had been worried that she might try to lay an egg while the stitches were in place and before it was time to remove the stitches, which would prevent the egg from being able to pass. So it seems positive that there wasn't any need to do so. The vet said that Isabel was doing well after the procedure, perching normally and somewhat relaxed. 

The vet said it was hard to be sure about the size of the egg because they had to collapse it, but he seems to suspect that it was an unusually large egg that has possibly pushed out the red lump and Isabel was having trouble laying it.

The vet asked to keep her at the clinic just to make sure everything is okay until later in the afternoon. He did recommend Metacam for a couple days, but since Isabel has always been the most skittish of all my parakeets, and considering that she might be more fragile after all this, I'm not sure I'd be able to administer it. I know for certain she would resist, because when I need to move or transport her, she'll throw herself against the walls of the cage to avoid me and generally panics. The vet said they could give her Metacam by injection, though it would only be in her system for about 24 hours. He doesn't think there would be too much of a negative consequence of not administering the Metacam for more days.

So that's the situation so far. I'll be picking up Isabel later today. Again, I'd really appreciate any insight or advice. It seems like the situation has resolved in one of the better possible scenarios. They were able to extract the egg without any problems and they didn't need to do a more aggressive procedure. I don't think we're out of the woods yet, given that Isabel might try to lay another egg and the prolapse might repeat, but for now at least, things seem under control and Isabel seems to be doing well.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

Yikes, that turned out to be pretty involved. When an egg is stuck like that it can sometimes prevent the droppings from being passed and that is another whole issue, so glad the vet was able to collapse the egg and remove it, had it burst inside of her that would have been really bad. I would ask the vet about giving Isabel a Lupron injection to calm the hormones and stop the egg laying. Since she was basically egg bound talk to the vet about it happening again and what actions you should take. I would think that after what she has just been through the inner tissues are fairly weak and if she continues to produce eggs she may prolapse again as you have indicated. The Metacam will act as an anti inflammatory and a pain killer, that is one of the things my hen was on when she came home after her prolapse. Ask the vet about calcium supplementation, I was giving that also but you can get calcium supplements that do not have to be given directly into the mouth. I would keep her separate from the others when you get her home.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much.

Thank goodness throughout all of this Isabel had been pooping, larger and more infrequent poops, but at least that wasn't an issue. I did ask the vet about Lupron during our first consultation yesterday, but he said their clinic had tried in the past to get Lupron and hadn't been able to get it. He did say he knew where I could go if it were necessary to do. I'll ask about what steps to take, the Lupron, and the calcium supplements. In the meantime, I do have a vitamin powder from Lafeber I had bought months ago. That has calcium and I could add that to her food, especially since she's being housed separately. 

It's unusual, though, I always thought Isabel got plenty of calcium through with the Roudybush pellets and the vegetables. But she may have needed more with all the eggs she's been laying. It doesn't seem like she was egg bound in the traditional sense. She laid one egg Tuesday, so it had been only a bit over 48 hours, but it is true that she was having much more difficulty than usual passing this most recent egg. I'll talk to the vet about that.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

When they are laying a lot of eggs the calcium gets depleted quickly and I don't think just the calcium in the food is enough, it may require a separate calcium supplement. When they get into a egg laying cycle it is usual to see an egg every other day. Have you ever seen or read about egg formation, it's pretty interesting, if you are interested I'll see if I can find the info.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you, definitely, I'd appreciate any information. I wasn't able to talk to the vet as the clinic was very busy when I arrived, but I did talk with one of secretaries. She agreed with the calcium supplements. At the time I mentioned the Lafeber vitamins, but now that I'm home, I realize the Lafeber vitamin powder doesn't specifically list calcium. Isabel does have a calcium block in her cage right now, hopefully she'll eat if she needs it while I look for another supplement I could give him. I asked the secretary about Lupron. The vet mentioned yesterday that the clinic had difficulty getting Lupron, and the secretary confirmed that the clinic had spent a year trying to get Lupron and weren't able to. She did mention two other clinics in my area that might have Lupron. For now, she suggested to monitor Isabel and let her rest up after these stressful past two days.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

You might find it useful to finely grate some of the calcium block almost to a powder and sprinkle it in the food in hopes that she will ingest some of it when she eats. Ask the vet if you can use one of the products in this link if they cannot provide you with a product. Calcium Supplements
When my hen came home she was on a liquid supplement called calcium glubionate directly into the mouth, eventually she was taken of of that and the vet gave me a powder called Osteoform that gets sprinkled on the food.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. Grating some of the calcium block sounds like a great idea. I did it now and she ate a bit. I'll ask the vet, but right now the plan is to grate the calcium block until the calcium supplements from the link arrive.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*How is she doing today?*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for asking. She's recovering well, I think. She's eating, preening, and playing. I've been grating the mineral block until the Morning Bird supplement arrives.

The red tissue hasn't come out again. I thought I saw it come out yesterday for an extremely brief moment, but then a drop of transparent liquid fell out of her vent and the tissue went back in. I've checked her vent since then and nothing has come out. It looks normal right now. I'm thinking that was just a bit of poop that was more watery than usual due to all the stress.

My concern right now is that she might try to lay another egg. Yesterday and today I've seen her ripping up the paper at the bottom of the cage. Right now I'm trying to distract her with carrots, which she loves. If I put a carrot in the cage, she won't even look at the paper at the bottom, she is completely focused on shredding and eating the carrot. I'd like to try giving her broocoli, as she has loved that before, but I'm a bit wary since I've heard broccoli can interfere with calcium absorption. I think it may be a good idea to look into foraging toys, to keep her mind engaged in an activity and keep her mind off of eggs.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*Giving her broccoli would be fine.

Spinach and parsley are the vegetables that contain* *oxalic acid which binds to calcium, blocks the absorption of calcium and puts stress on the kidneys.

Please keep us updated on how she's doing. *
💜 💜


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you very much. I was wondering, when do budgies stop being able to reproduce? I read somewhere online that the females can reproduce for about four years, but is that true?


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*No, reproduction does not end at 4 years old. 

Budgie females can reproduce even if they are much older than that.

However, it is NOT safe to allow a budgie to breed once it is past 4 years.
Laying eggs is extremely hard on the female's body.*


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

Thank you for explaining. I hope I can think of something to discourage Isabel from laying eggs. I know Lupron would be useful. I've been emailing the vet. Hopefully, if he can't get Lupron, maybe he can put me in contact with another clinic that does have it.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I am surprised that they have a problem getting the Lupron, as it is commonly used, maybe there is a problem because of the pandemic like with so many other things. You would think that of one vet can get it that it would be available to all that need it, at least in the USA.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

I've been observing Napoleon and I'm very concerned about his feathers. I think he seems to be losing them. Recently he lost almost all of his tail feathers. His tail feathers had looked ragged before, and I thought maybe one of my other three budgies might have pulled at his tail feathers. But recently he lost all of his long tail feathers. And now that I'm looking at his wings, these seem much shorter than before.

For comparison, here is a picture of Napoleon from January 19.












Now, here is a video I took of Napoleon tonight.






Up until a very short time ago, he was consistently doing better. The last time I took him to the vet, the vet said Napoleon was breathing better than at any previous visit. Now, Napoleon did need a break trim at his last check up January 10. His beak had grown very long over December. The beak has kept growing, but it's not long enough for another trim yet.

But in the last couple weeks, he's been less energetic than before. I've noticed him sleep more. I also noticed Napoleon seemed more wobbly than usual, but since the vet said Napoleon might show neurological symptoms for a long time, it seemed like the same problem.

However, I notice that lately, he's stopped even trying to fly. He has the energy to climb all over the cage, but he won't try to fly. If one of the other budgies pecks at him, he'll often fall from his perch and try to climb back up. He can't even jump from perch to perch, and I think it's that he notices that he doesn't have the feathers to fly.

I don't know what could be causing this. I remember when Napoleon had cultures, the vet said they had found a staph infection, and looking at this article (Feather Problems In Birds | VCA Animal Hospitals), it says that staph infections can cause feather loss. I'm scared Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease might be a possibility given Napoleon's symptoms.

What makes me even more concerned is that Isabela also has a ragged tail feathers. I took this picture when she was still eggbound last week.











In looking at them, I'm concerned Napoleon is sick with something causing his feathers to fall out. Because Isabela also has ragged tail feathers, I'm equally concerned that Napoleon has something that has affected the others.

That said, Isabela is so much more energetic than Napoleon. She's been in the hospital cage since last week's procedure, but she moves without the same wobbliness as Napoleon. She's eating very well and preening. She is still tearing the paper at the bottom of the cage, like she does before laying eggs, but so far she hasn't laid any eggs.

In fact, except Napoleon, the other three budgies seem perfectly fine. I have another male and female budgie, currently in the same cage with Napoleon, who show no symptoms at all. They eat, preen, and fly completely normally.

I may be rushing to conclusions thinking that the others are sick, given that no one but Napoleon is showing symptoms. It's late today, but tomorrow morning, the plan is to isolate Napoleon, just in case, and talk to my vet.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

The feathers in the pictures of both birds really look like feathers look when other birds have been pulling them and picking at them or damaged by constantly being in contact with the bars of the cage during movement. In the video of Napoleon, he looks and sounds like he is annoyed with the other birds, can you house him separately but next to the others, I am thinking that maybe he is under too much stress from the others. There is a blood test for PBFD if necessary. A beak that grows too fast can be a sign of fatty liver, has the vet ever talked about that?


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

This morning I put Napoleon in the hospital cage and returned Isabel to the main cage.

I hope it's more an issue of my budgies pulling each other's tails or of the feathers having contact with the bars. About a year ago, I bought a much larger main cage, so they have plenty of space. 

Napoleon does mainly climb, so he is always in contact with the bars. But Napoleon's wings are so short now and he is so weak. Isabel jumps around with much more energy. Hopefully Napoleon does better in the hospital cage.

I've mentioned fatty liver to the vet a couple times. While we aren't sure, the vet doesn't think that's the issue.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

It's been a couple days since we put Napoleon in the small cage. He was very weak for the first couple days, especially yesterday. He is still very weak. But I notice that a couple feathers that might eventually grow out in his tail. And today he was frequently chirping.


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

I was watching a webinar yesterday on heart disease in birds, has the vet ever brought up this subject in relation to all of Napoleons symptoms? Heart issues can manifest neurologically. If you are interested in watching it let me know and I will give you the link.


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## hablandodebudgies (Oct 3, 2021)

The vet hasn't mentioned heart conditions, but I'll definitely ask him and see what he thinks. Yes, thank you very much, I'd really appreciate the link


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

There are some necropsy pictures in it but Dr. Lamb will warn you before she shows them in case there are people that do not want to look at it.


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