# Undigested seeds in poop after vet's all-clear



## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

Hi everyone, hope you're well. 

I'm writing again about our newest rescue, Scrooge, a half-English budgie that was kept in deplorable conditions due to an accident at the breeder's. After months of tests and medications, the Tuesday before we got the brilliant news from the lab that his poop was clear. They tested with cultures and staining, looking for bacteria, psittacosis and AGY. The reason for all the rests, apart from being mandatory since he's new, was that he often got poop stuck on the feathers around his cloaca, like a - forgive my food metaphor- a meatball. Despite all the tests and medications, this has not subsided completely, but we were starting to think, all three avian doctors, that maybe it's mostly psychological since he's had a huge shock in the last months since the accident and the rehoming, in addition to a weakened body due to said injury. I am enclosing a photo of these poopballs (coprolithi are what the vet calls them, literally stone faeces), but it's quite old. Back in the day I had to clean him with a q-tip, but now he's strong enough to do it himself. At times they're most like in the photo, others dried. Nowadays he only gets them at night. 

That being said, in the last couple of days I've found poop with whole seeds in them. Not every single one contains them, but a few do. I'm enlcosing a photo as well. He has zero other symptoms, except being slightly underweight. I know that wasting is a symptom of AGY, as are the seeds in the faeces, but I do believe he's underweight largely because he was feeling really bad for so long. Right now hes eating, chirping away and is even strong enough to fly a bit. He only adjusts his crop when needed, doesn't vomit or anything like that; we are always in the same room and I keep a close eye on him. Poor baby is also moulting heavily right now. I'll be sending a seedy poop tomorrow to the lab, which is literally at the other end of the country, first thing tomorrow, since they're closed for the day today, and will be talking to his local avian vet, but she hasn't got any equipment for tests. All she can do is look at the poop and at him. 

I'm mortified because not only was I beginning to have a bit of hope about his future and quality of life, but... amphteracin B is illegal in my country. Yu can't find it anywhere and it cannot be imported. We turned every stone for a friend's cockatiel a few months ago, but in the end Pikachu died a very unpleasant death. 

Any advice, differential diagnoses, medications (to keep in mind, not to administer of course) would be greatly appreciated.


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## mixxie (Dec 10, 2015)

Seems like a whole undigested seed. A single one. Are you sure she/he is diagnosed with AGY?

I recently battled AGY too and she is clearing now, the poop has tid bits only as she learned how to chew the food and taking time unlike swallowing it whole like a vaccuum. If amphotericin b is illegal in your country there is a sodium benzoate medication that can help if it's really AGY.

My baby girl had worse her poop is like popcorn, with at least 5 or 6 whole seeds present in every feces. She weny from 39g to 27grams, weak and i can feel her keel bone

Did she ate colored pellets in the last picture? Her poop seems orange

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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

He's not diagnosed with it, no, the lab is closed for the day, so I can't send the samples yet and it should take a day or two for results to get back. 

It's two seeds in that poop actually, the angle of the photo isn't showing it well, but yes, it's usually one or two seeds for every 5 poops, it's not a lot and it's not in every bowel movement. There are six poops on the bottom of the cage right now and only the photographed one has the undigested seeds in them. So I'm guessing even if it is AGY it's an early stage. 

Seriously, I didn't know budgies can learn to chew... After all Scrooge had been starved for so long, he gulps down food and guards it greedily. Can't say I blame him, but it would be easier on his gut if he ate slower, for sure. 

I've heard about the sodium benzoate thing, haven;t dared look it up yet, but will so for sure if the test comes back positive. 

No, he only eats seeds and greens for now, he was a breeding **** his entire life of 2 years before I got him. It looks orange because the photo is old, it was taken on the second day of having him here and he was basically a step from death. We took him to the avian vet the next day and she kept him in the ICU for three days straight with little hope he'd bounce back. We suspect his poop looked odd because of the starvation. Now they look fine. 

Addition: Just talked to one of the vets and he agreed with you completely! He even used the word 'popcorn' to describe that sort of of poop. He didn't even request a sample. He thinks it's just a tired body trying to find a way to function properly again. Thank you very much for your insight and aid, I hope your little girl make a full recovery soon!


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## Cody (Sep 5, 2013)

It's possible that he could benefit from some digestive enzymes sprinkled on his food and also some probiotics, talk to the vet about it. Whole seeds in the poop do not always indicate AGY.


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## Cookie&Omelette (12 mo ago)

I can not add anything too this thread but that bird looks sick, really sick. I commend you for what your doing though.


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

I can't add anything else either, but wanted to add that your little one is a girl. She's beautiful and I'm keeping her in my prayers.


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## mixxie (Dec 10, 2015)

Yes mine learned to crush the seeds and i used the term chewing as she would do on pellets.

Cody gave you some idea. Put some enzymes and probiotics

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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

Cody said:


> It's possible that he could benefit from some digestive enzymes sprinkled on his food and also some probiotics, talk to the vet about it. Whole seeds in the poop do not always indicate AGY.


That's true, we talked on the phone right after I typed the issue, and he agrees that, considering his general gut issues, he should go back on Anima Strath, since he doesn't drink water that looks muddled. He doesn't believe it's AGY or any parasite since the seeds are so rare inbwteen normal bowel movements. I've ordered the enzymes, but they're struggling with deliveries, possibly because of the war, so it feels wrong to complain. 



Cookie&Omelette said:


> I can not add anything too this thread but that bird looks sick, really sick. I commend you for what your doing though.


Thank you, it's the doctors who do all the work. He's not as sick as he looks these days. His eye is mangled because another male injured him when he was a breeding **** in an aviary and then was left untreated and abandoned in a filthy cage that was caked in faeces and mould. We took him in on December 3rd when the accident happened in August. We didn't even know whether he had an eye under there. He spent 3 days in the ICU right away and we continued treatment for another 2.5months. But his tests are completely clear right now, the tests show a very healthy bird. The eye will never heal, it's developed scar tissue and will always need regular treatments to keep inflammation down. Were he a human or a large animal, say a dog or a cat, the issue would be fixed via surgery, but no one is agreeing to do it since he's so tiny. His feet are also deformed and he's underweight (can't see it since he's so poofy, but thescale doesn't lie). The dark strands you see in the photo around his beak are anima Strath, a thick liquid supplement for gut flora; it's my fault, I've terrible aim with a syringe, but hes managed to clean himself up since the photo was taken. The fact that he's trying to finish his summer moult, which was stopped by the injury isn't helping him either, but allow me to say I'm delighted every time I see a feather covered in old blood fall off. Soon he'll be as yellow as a banana!



StarlingWings said:


> I can't add anything else either, but wanted to add that your little one is a girl. She's beautiful and I'm keeping her in my prayers.


Thank you, appreciate it, but he's definitely a boy. You cant see the eyes, because hes so fluffy, but he's a loutino, with red eyes and a pinkish mauve cere. He's not the same bird in my avatar pphoto, that's Dawn, a yellow opaline greywing I adopted in June, who is of course female and since then has swapped her baby blue cere for the deep brown of a super bloody lady. Not only does Scrooge look and act like a flirty male, but he's also a veryfied father. Like I mentioned above, he was a breeding **** for an amateur breeder and I nearly purchased one of his babies in June. I was looking for a friend for Iris, my first budgie who flew into my room last February, and I was thinking of getting her a lutino female friend, this time from a breeder, in hopes she's learn how to bird. I was on a waiting list, but then Dawn here needed a home, so I went to get her and took myself off the list. Scroogie was injured in the next breeding season. I'll try and take a photo where you can see his eyes better and he doesn't look as battered. 

PS: He's obsessed with swings!


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

Ah, from the photo you posted earlier it looked like his cere was brown. Now I can see it’s just really messy and crusty looking 😕 It looks like more than just dry skin and it may be mites, does his cere still look like this?


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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

StarlingWings said:


> Ah, from the photo you posted earlier it looked like his cere was brown. Now I can see it’s just really messy and crusty looking 😕 It looks like more than just dry skin and it may be mites, does his cere still look like this?


It's neither messy nor crusty, it's always been shiny pinkish mauve. The brown things around it are anima strath droplets, a cocktail of enzymes that looks and smells like thick vinegar. He had to take it via syringe, since it's not a thin liquid you can drink, and my aim is terrible, so it'd go on all the feathers around his face and collar. Most is gone now. Some got washed away by drinking, because it's a very water-soluble solution and the rest simply fell out along with those feathers, since he is, as you can see, moulting heavily. The few places that remain, one between the good eye and the cere and another on his collar, which has caused a feather to get stuck like a little bowtie, are get fewer by the day. 

Here, check out the mix of matted feathers and animal strath, it just fell off from around his mouth. You can see the white tips of the quils, a tapped husk and the brown liquid as well. Actually it's still kinda sticky, and it's been nearly a month since he took the last dose. He's been checked thoughly for parasites, external and internal, taken medicines when needed and all that remains is a dose of teniazin, which I'm expecting to arrive in the mail for a while now.


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## mixxie (Dec 10, 2015)

Seems on her nose she has also some discharges....like respiratory problem?. Also the area between the cere and beak was like a small wound due to scratching?

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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

mixxie said:


> Seems on her nose she has also some discharges....like respiratory problem?. Also the area between the cere and beak was like a small wound due to scratching?
> 
> Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk


Staining from his food. Poor lamb had been starved for so long he literally sits in his food dish and eats so fast his head is a yellow blur. I had to weigh him and give him his eye medicine, so I wiped his cere a bit as well, it's gone now. 

If you're referring to the wave-like brown thing there, no it's just more matted feathers and anima strath. Like I said, my aim is terrible and at some point he was caked in it. Now most feathers have fallen off, thanks to moulting, but a few remain. He doesn;t even scrathc there, he can't, they're completely matted, you need to pull them apart with long nails after they've fallen off, and hes also got some deformities on his toes and nails, he can't even hold his balance for too long and his nails grow in odd places. I have to scratch and clear his head of pin feathers, since his chicken legs are more or less useless. He;s stronger though, back in the day he couldn;t even perch on one leg for any period of time.


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## StarlingWings (Mar 15, 2013)

Ah, thanks for taking the time to explain. It’s hard medicating budgies and I hope he feels better soon! 💛


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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

StarlingWings said:


> Ah, thanks for taking the time to explain. It’s hard medicating budgies and I hope he feels better soon! 💛


Don't mention it, I love talking about these goofy chickens! Also, this particular chicken is a mess, I completely understand how people may perceive his appearance and what may have caused it. It's all just good-natured concern, why would I mind. 

It really is, and the avian vet makes it look so easy! For a couple of days after she medicated Scroogie, his poops were _awesome_, if that can be said about poop. After I started giving the enzymes, they went back to meh. One time I choked him, scared the daylights out of me. Thankfully with a bit of water and some time he managed to undo my damage and swallow properly, but for a few minutes and was sure he was going to die of my hand... 

Thank you, happy to report he hasn't had seeds in his poop since the day I posted. I kept him isolated from the other budgies just to be sure, and only gave him his regular seeds. Added greens after a day, poop still looks great. I have a sneaky suspicion it was the spray millet. I know, it's supposed to be easy to digest and that why people give it to sick or barely weaned birds, but he had never had before and he'd been gorging himself for days along with his regular foods, so maybe it was too much for his gut, which had barely eaten in months. He's still under close watch, but I do believe the poop thing is back where ut was, still unsolved, but stable. 

He's a happy little boy, busy exploring the life of a pet. He's discovered swings and spends all his days on those, only leaves them to grab a bit of food and water. His eye looks dreadful again, I'll have to take a smear of the discharge and send it to the only vet lab in the country tomorrow (today is a bank holiday), in hopes the cultures point us to a specific antibiotic. The vet said he'll have the scarring for life, which will cause re-infections, but we have to try. He'll be seen by a veterinary opthalmologist soon too, but I don't have my hopes up, they refuse to actively treat birds, just diagnose. 

Sorry, went off on a tangent. Point is, his digestive track seems to be doing better. Thank you everyone for chipping in with advice, you helped put my mind at ease, and thank you for caring about little Scroogie, wish he could know there's plenty of people who care about him no matter what he looks like, not like that jerk of a breeder who had him before.


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## FaeryBee (May 9, 2011)

*I'm glad to hear Scoogie is doing better now!
Please tell him that there are lots of people who love him! I'm sure he'll understand. 💜💜*


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## Nausicaa (Jul 22, 2021)

FaeryBee said:


> *I'm glad to hear Scoogie is doing better now!
> Please tell him that there are lots of people who love him! I'm sure he'll understand. 💜💜*


Thank you very much, I read to him all the well wishes people send his way, he deserves to know that people care about him and aren't like the jerk who had him before.


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