So Where Do I Buy My First Bird?

[BUUZBEE]

Most of us have heard the sad stories about puppy mills. Hundreds of miserable creatures huddled in crowded cages - their only purpose in life being to breed. However, most people have not been exposed to the avian equivalent, the bird mill.

Bird mills are facilities which are used to mass produce parrots for the pet trade. Almost all pet stores, especially the larger chains, purchase their parrots from some form of bird mill (such as Kaytee Preferred Birds, which supplies PETsMART).

Most bird mill breeding facilities resemble warehouses. Breeder birds, many of them former pets, are kept in small cages with nothing more than food, water, and a nestbox. They are never handled or given any mental stimulation. Confinement in such conditions leads to neurotic behavior in many breeder birds.

Not all breeder birds are compatible with each other. If introductions are not carefully done with acute observation and possible intervention - and they rarely are in bird mills - one or both birds of a prospective breeding pair can be seriously injured or killed.

If a pair does successfully breed and a female lays fertile eggs, they are removed from the nestbox and placed in an incubator. Chicks are not allowed any contact with their parents. Assembly line-type tubes are used to put food directly into the baby birds' crops. This tube feeding makes it very hard for a chick to be weaned later on because the chick associates eating with a tube instead of food.

Some bird mills wean baby birds using a technique called deprivation, or forced, weaning. During deprevation weaning chicks are refused formula with the assumption that when they get hungry enough they'll eat solid food. Deprivation weaning can result in malnutrition, starvation, and permanent behavior problems.

Most bird mills wean chicks to cheap seed-only diets in order to save money. This can cause serious health problems and often make it difficult for the birds to be converted to a more nutritious diet later on.

The birds the mills are unable to wean are often turned over to inexperienced pet shop employees, who in turn sell the fragile creatures to uninformed buyers. These unfortunate birds usually starve to death or die at the hands of misdirected people attempting to handfeed them. (Click here for more information on the sale of unweaned birds.)

Another practice in bird mills is the prophylactic use of antibiotics as a substitute for good sanitation. This can have terrible short term as well as long term effects on the birds: broad-spectrum antibiotics destroy the beneficial flora and fauna residing in birds, leaving them even more susceptible. Fragile organs can be damaged and some birds have built up resistances to certain types of antibiotics.

The less obvious result of production breeding in bird mills is young parrots that have not been handled or socialized. These chicks often develop serious behavioral problems as they mature and make horrible pets. Across the country bird rescue groups are overflowing with abandoned birds - not doubt most the result of production breeding in bird mills.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/BUUZBEE/Misc%20Pics/Conure%20Crazy%20Stuff/birdmill.jpg
Washington State bird mill
www.theangryparrot.org


What Can YOU do?

Unfortunately, the Animal Welfare Act doesn't cover birds. So, unlike puppy mills, the USDA has no authority over bird mills. But there are still a few actions you can take against bird mills:

*Never buy a mass-marketed bird from a chain pet store! These companies will not stop mass-producing and selling birds until it is no longer profitable to do so.

*Encourage pet stores to provide the same adoption services for parrots that they do for dogs and cats instead of selling birds in their stores.

*If you see a bird being neglected or abused, report it to your local humane organization or animal control agency; or contact the local law enforcement office or nearest humane agency.


LINKS/SOURCES:

The Sale Of Unweaned Birds (http://www.petstoreabuse.com/unweaned.html) - By Lexi Puhl

Scudder's Parrot Depot (http://www.parrotprotection.org/en/envelope.php?./Projects/ParrotDepot/pd-00-over.ssi) - Story on the largest bird mill in Washington state.

Hundreds of Birds Found In Mans Van (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=4655237) - News article on bird mill operator selling birds from his van.

The Problem With Bird Mills (http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa051100.htm) - Know the Source of Your Bird to Avoid Life-Long Issues

The Sale of Unweaned Baby Birds (http://www.avianwelfare.org/issues/unweaned.htm) - Many breeders and stores sell unweaned baby parrots, claiming that finishing the hand-feeding and weaning process yourself will "guarantee a hand-tame bird" and "ensure bonding." While this sounds compelling, it is not true!

The Poultrification Of Parrots (http://www.companionparrot.com/Poultrification%20of%20Parrots.htm) - Has The Bird Biz Shot Itself In The Foot?

Kaytee Preferred Birds and Petsmart (http://www.companionparrot.com/Kaytee%20Preferred%20Birds.htm) - Partners in the Avi-industry—Is this plan for the birds?

Production Breeding & Mass-Marketing of Parrots For The Pet Trade (http://www.avianwelfare.org/issues/marketing.htm) - Over the past decade, exotic "pets" like parrots have become the rage even though they are challenging to keep in captivity.

Parrots and People... A Relationship Of Conflict (http://www.avianwelfare.org/issues/articles/conflict.htm) - by Tami Myers and Mary Margison, The Beak Retreat

Pet Store Abuse: (http://www.petstoreabuse.com/birdbreeding.html) Information provided & premission given to www.conurecrazy.com by Lexi Pulh 11/4/09 please obtain permission before reposting! Thanks!

[pal0m1n0]

Thanks for the info, I read a couple of the links.

[BUUZBEE]

Thanks for clicking the approve button LOL (staff) ;)

I'm posting, just to bump it since its from 11/4

[enicol6]

Hi there lady ;) I am going to have to read all the links later on but the post was great and very informative.

[EverLove]

People can be so cruel... someone there must know how wrong their methods are :(

[Shy Bird]

how can i find out where your local petsmart buys its animals?i looked at the sticker that was on the pets description and price tag and i seen two words that were off to the side,the two words were "dragon trading".i could not find anything out about dragon trading and what it has to do with petsmart.

[SpickyDavies]

going to check out all the links, they look very informative :) thankyou
it's the same elsewhere in the animal trade, we are a sick breed

[Chippie<3]

Do not buy from places like Petsmart. anywhere with a history of bird cruelty isnt a good idea.
Ive heard buying budgies straight from the breeders is a good idea, but I'll leave the more experienced guys to judge that one :D

[juliababy]

oh my gosh! thats terrible i feel so bad one of budgies is from petsmart and i had no idea they did this.

[riotfox]

thats so terrible! how do you know if the shop is supplied by a bird mill?

[BabyRain5]

I just called my local Humane Society in my city and asked about the quality of Pet stores and if there was anywhere else I could purchase a budgie. She informed me that they have inspected conditions within pet stores in our city which have been up to date lately but she has no information on the condition of the birds before they arrive at the pet stores. She also told me that there's not really anywhere else to buy a budgie in the city but sometimes they do receive some at the Humane Society but they don't currently have any. Any ideas of who I could contact to get further information?

[Everlasting]

Why don't you check and see if there are any local budgie breeders in your area?

[Vickie]

You could try such such as craigslist or kijiji, or your local buy and sell website if you would like to adopt an animal.

[demzo13]

I believe you should buy your birds from a breeder, they are alot healthier and are on a way better diet. Petstores feed the birds bare minimum because they are all too cheap. I feel bad for those poor birds, but what can you do ?
-Goodluck in your choice

[Peter Ryan]

Buying budgies from a breeder is much cheaper and that way you know exactly how old the budgie is and they are more tame.

[helloyo53]

I always find this as a touchy subject.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, it's not every pet store that is bad, it is only some. The way I see it, a pet store budgie is no different from a breeder budgie. They all have great personalities, and they are all the cutest little things in the world.

[Budgerigarluv]

If the RSPCA did cover birds (or do they?) I would buy them from there. But I got my budgies from a place where they didn't take care of the birds. Is that good?

[riotfox]

^ i think the rspca does cover birds... dont quote me on that though.

[Blueberry&Kiwi]

I bought my 2 Parakeets at Petco, they were in a nice big clean cage, so i had nothing to worry about. :budgie: :budge:

[BUUZBEE]

I bought my 2 Parakeets at Petco, they were in a nice big clean cage, so i had nothing to worry about. :budgie: :budge:

The point is where do Petco get their birds.... almost all are from bird mills.

When you buy birds form Petco type stores, you are supporting the bird mills.

[BUUZBEE]

I always find this as a touchy subject.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, it's not every pet store that is bad, it is only some. The way I see it, a pet store budgie is no different from a breeder budgie. They all have great personalities, and they are all the cutest little things in the world.

Bird mill birds may have great personalities at the store and when purchased, but you're usually getting an inferior bird. The chances of inbreeding, sickness and shorter life span increase hugely when the come from mills. If you're purchasing from a reputable breeder, they have perfect stock, will be healthy and live long lives.

[BUUZBEE]

how can i find out where your local petsmart buys its animals?i looked at the sticker that was on the pets description and price tag and i seen two words that were off to the side,the two words were "dragon trading".i could not find anything out about dragon trading and what it has to do with petsmart.

If you cant find any info on them, go elsewhere to purchase or adopt your new bird.

thats so terrible! how do you know if the shop is supplied by a bird mill?

talk to the management, find out who their supplier is, then do your own research on them. Google is a great thing! If the store is not willing to give you info, thats a red flag, go somewhere else!

[lotus15]

I strongly, strongly agree with you on this Anna! I personally do not support Petco or Petsmart no matter how clean or how "well cared for" the pets at any facility look-- many people say that "Yes, I don't like them in general, but my local one treats them really well." It's not the treatment that is the main issue (although often it is a serious issue), it's the sourcing of the birds. ALL Petcos and Petsmarts, because they are corporate chains that are vertically integrated, source their birds from the Kaytee Preferred Birds program and other commercial breeding facilities, which are glorified names for bird mills. They take no heed in the proper socialization of birds and also believe that a 3 day quarantine is sufficient-- this is their national protocol. And as any concerned bird owner knows, this is far from suitable and the proper minimum quarantine is ten times that length, but in a facility with so many birds should really be 45-60 days.

[BUUZBEE]

-- many people say that "Yes, I don't like them in general, but my local one treats them really well." It's not the treatment that is the main issue (although often it is a serious issue), it's the sourcing of the birds.

exactly...

[Jen84]

Try a local budgie breeder. You can search them online. I have bought birds from the petstore before however, those situations did not work out well. I bought my precious Petrie and Oliver from a local breeder and boy! What a difference! Her love and care has made two wonderfully loving birds and I could not be happier!

[Gazou]

If you cant find any info on them, go elsewhere to purchase or adopt your new bird.



talk to the management, find out who their supplier is, then do your own research on them. Google is a great thing! If the store is not willing to give you info, thats a red flag, go somewhere else!


Just a quick note since this thread became active again: I had a local pet store when I lived in CT that would refuse to tell you who they got their birds from because they "didn't' want you going to the breeder". I loved the store otherwise, but only because I did find the breeder eventually who provided their cockatiels despite them not telling me directly.

Definitely a red flag that they are either not from a good place or overly protective of their "sales".

[BUUZBEE]

exactly.... if you discuss with them that you want to be sure where they come from, that they are not from bird mills, they should have no problem giving you the info... if the still wont, go elsewhere.

[beckysbudgies]

I bought my first Budgie from Pet Smart and also some from Petco. I was lucky and have not had any problems with them. That being said, I now buy my birds from a small pet store about an hour away from where I live. They are mainly a tropical fish store, but have a good selection of birds as well. I have had very good experiences with them. They tell you about each breeder. I bought my latest english budgie there, and was told they will only deal with him. They gave me some info as to how to find him on the net. I
e-mailed him and he called me the same day. He looked up in his record book and told all the info on my bird. He also invited me to his place to see his birds. The next time I was at the store, he showed up to deliver more birds, and we had a nice visit. He gave me some good tips on the special blend of food that he feeds his birds, and some other good advice. I won't buy from anywhere else from now on. Oh yeah..... They also had the best prices. About half of what Pet Smart and Petco charge

[Flugmeister]

Bird mill birds may have great personalities at the store and when purchased, but you're usually getting an inferior bird. The chances of inbreeding, sickness and shorter life span increase hugely when the come from mills. If you're purchasing from a reputable breeder, they have perfect stock, will be healthy and live long lives.

This is simply not true. The number of birds bred and the amount of time bred has ensured a high level of survivability--it is a simple fact of evolution.

No one is going to stop mom and dad from going into Pets-4-All and buying budgies for junior and as such, it will continue. So, why not save a bird by buying one there? The birds saved by caring budgerigar enthusiasts will not in any way promote the practice--there are just too many.

My beloved budgerigar Budgie, now somewhere beyond 12 years old and one of the oldest birds discussed on this forum, a superior vocalist and delightful member of our family, was a "bird mill" bird.

[lotus15]

It's not evolution when there is unnatural selection involved. Yes, there may always be exceptions, such as in the case of your very long-lived companion, but it is a point of fact that birds from bird mills tend to live much shorter lives and are also more prone to disease. In no way do their practices promote "survivability"-- a higher population for sure, but that does not mean they are "surviving," they are merely existing.

Many people see their pet store purchases as saving a bird, but for others, this is simply promoting the practice. I for one would never encourage an irresponsible source of bird breeding by paying them for their unscrupulous practices, even if it meant not owning a budgie. There are always birds in rescues waiting to be rehomed, classified ads for adoptable birds, and, of course, responsible breeders.

[Sapphire]

This is simply not true. The number of birds bred and the amount of time bred has ensured a high level of survivability--it is a simple fact of evolution.

This is incorrect.

Animal mills are not concerned with how healthy the parents are--to them, any animal, so long as it can still breed, is good breeding stock. They produce birds on such a large scale that they can afford to lose some to disease, malnutrition, or a combination of the two. They aren't concerned about the birds as individuals.

Responsible breeders will only breed from good, healthy cocks and hens, and will allow them rest.

The fact that Budgie is a long-lived, healthy bird is merely anecdotal evidence. There's nothing that says healthy birds can't come from bird mills--but the majority are not as healthy as they should be.

[riotfox]

It's not evolution when there is unnatural selection involved. Yes, there may always be exceptions, such as in the case of your very long-lived companion, but it is a point of fact that birds from bird mills tend to live much shorter lives and are also more prone to disease. In no way do their practices promote "survivability"-- a higher population for sure, but that does not mean they are "surviving," they are merely existing.

Many people see their pet store purchases as saving a bird, but for others, this is simply promoting the practice. I for one would never encourage an irresponsible source of bird breeding by paying them for their unscrupulous practices, even if it meant not owning a budgie. There are always birds in rescues waiting to be rehomed, classified ads for adoptable birds, and, of course, responsible breeders.

yeah exactly, pet shop is not rescue. course im not trying to be a hypocrite, all my animals come from pet shops (well except chomper of course :p). but i dont claim to have rescued them, and, well, in a small town like albury there isnt a huge selection other than pet shops :(

[Flugmeister]

It's not evolution when there is unnatural selection involved. Yes, there may always be exceptions, such as in the case of your very long-lived companion, but it is a point of fact that birds from bird mills tend to live much shorter lives and are also more prone to disease. In no way do their practices promote "survivability"-- a higher population for sure, but that does not mean they are "surviving," they are merely existing.

Many people see their pet store purchases as saving a bird, but for others, this is simply promoting the practice. I for one would never encourage an irresponsible source of bird breeding by paying them for their unscrupulous practices, even if it meant not owning a budgie. There are always birds in rescues waiting to be rehomed, classified ads for adoptable birds, and, of course, responsible breeders.

Don't confuse the notion or mechanism of selection with evolution. Certainly a bird mill is unnatural selection, but it is selection and it does follow the rules of evolution. Nevertheless, this is a pointless argument is it not? The bird mills will continue and many, such as myself, will consider getting a bird from them a rescue. Others, such as yourself, will see this as abomination and will only pursue the reputable breeder route insofar as you can validate and verify that the breeder is indeed reputable.

I am more interested now in your assertion that there are always birds in rescues. Seriously and in all candor, where are these rescues? I frankly was not aware there was any such thing and may be able to participate. The only thing worse than denying a budgerigar flight is to torture it further with poor living conditions, caged boredom and disease, or even physical abuse.

[lotus15]

Evolution works-- in an extremely simplified version-- because animals evolve according to the needs of their environment and survival. For example, if a certain plant that was once a staple of an animal's diet becomes more scarce, those animals that adapt and are able to find a different food source will survive-- the others won't. In unnatural circumstances, if birds were being bread for a specific color mutation, for a personality trait, or for some other reason-- then yes, perhaps in theory, this could be a form of "evolution" through selective breeding. But in bird mills when birds are not bred for health, genetic diversity, or good personalities, then no, this is not evolution, this is not selection at all, this is irresponsible breeding.

As for rescues-- there are rescues are all over the country and they could really use the help! Near me, for example, there is one in upstate New York, two in Brooklyn, the ASPCA which is nation-wide and always takes in abused or surrendered pets including birds, and my veterinary facility, which also accepts surrendered birds. If you are interested in rescuing a bird or volunteering with a rescue, I would google avian rescues or sanctuaries in your area, get in touch with the local ASPCA, or ask your avian vet for some references. Some of the biggest ones around the country are Phoenix Landing and the Gabriel Foundation, and they too might be able to put you in touch with a local rescue.

[riotfox]

perhaps flugmeister means greater resistance to disease? the unhygenic conditions pretty much cancels out the resistance though.

and well, rescues are pretty hard to find.

Evolution works-- in an extremely simplified version-- because animals evolve according to the needs of their environment and survival. For example, if a certain plant that was once a staple of an animal's diet becomes more scarce, those animals that adapt and are able to find a different food source will survive-- the others won't. In unnatural circumstances, if birds were being bread for a specific color mutation, for a personality trait, or for some other reason-- then yes, perhaps in theory, this could be a form of "evolution" through selective breeding. But in bird mills when birds are not bred for health, genetic diversity, or good personalities, then no, this is not evolution, this is not selection at all, this is irresponsible breeding.

As for rescues-- there are rescues are all over the country and they could really use the help! Near me, for example, there is one in upstate New York, two in Brooklyn, the ASPCA which is nation-wide and always takes in abused or surrendered pets including birds, and my veterinary facility, which also accepts surrendered birds. If you are interested in rescuing a bird or volunteering with a rescue, I would google avian rescues or sanctuaries in your area, get in touch with the local ASPCA, or ask your avian vet for some references. Some of the biggest ones around the country are Phoenix Landing and the Gabriel Foundation, and they too might be able to put you in touch with a local rescue.

[lotus15]

Bird mill birds actually tend to have far less resistance to disease because it is standard procedure to medicate them and put them on a cycle of antibiotics instead of a quarantine. This means that they are often either being treated for diseases they don't have or treated for the wrong diseases... a problem for several reasons, the most important probably being that they build up resistances to medications and treatments, not diseases. So, when they do get sick, it is often even harder to cure them. There is absolutely no advantage in terms of health of a bird mill bird.

As for rescues... I'm really not sure how it is in Australia, but in the US, they're surprisingly common. I literally did not no of ANY bird rescues near me a year ago, but in the past year I have found four within an hour's drive, and 7 or 8 within two hours. Just ask around, they do exist, and they do need our help :)

[riotfox]

^ lol an hours drive is a bit too much for me :(. i havent been able to locate one, but since im not buying another animal anytime soon i should be fine :p. i am doing some research as to where the local pet shops get their animals from so i know which is best to buy stuff from. id go to the one that sells the least live animals, except they dont have what i want :rolleyes:

[lotus15]

I know what you mean-- I don't actually drive or own a car, but luckily we have amazing public transport here.

You're doing your research-- that's a lot more than most people can say :)

[Flugmeister]

I see where this discussion travels, predictable and not overly useful. On one side, the self-righteous that declare the so-called bird mill the work of evil and a hellish place for budgerigars to spring from, on the other, people who for many reasons use such places to acquire pets. The reality is that in nature the budgerigar is subject to far worse than that of the bird mill with one exception, they get to fly in the wild. If your budgerigar is not free to fly, daily and with vigor, then you are no better than the bird mill, but that is a different issue.

All of the data presented here is not data but anecdotal speculation. As such, all of it may be discounted. One fact is certain, the cyclic breeding of the budgerigar in the bird mill has had an evolutionary effect, it has been positive and the proof is it's continuance. The assertion that a budgerigar from a bird mill is somehow lesser than that from a so-called "breeder" is nonsense. Evidence abounds, I have a budgerigar that easily refutes the notion and others also have relayed positive results albeit that this evidence too is anecdotal. Nevertheless, you must concede that an individual who goes out of their way to purchase a budgerigar from a breeder as opposed to a bird mill is more likely to care for that bird more aggressively than the one that is casually purchased from the mill as a family pet. Nevertheless, and notwithstanding the fact that only a fractional population of budgerigar owners publish here, it is not where you acquired your budgerigar, but how you treat it after it joins your life.

[riotfox]

I see where this discussion travels, predictable and not overly useful. On one side, the self-righteous that declare the so-called bird mill the work of evil and a hellish place for budgerigars to spring from, on the other, people who for many reasons use such places to acquire pets. The reality is that in nature the budgerigar is subject to far worse than that of the bird mill with one exception, they get to fly in the wild. If your budgerigar is not free to fly, daily and with vigor, then you are no better than the bird mill, but that is a different issue.

All of the data presented here is not data but anecdotal speculation. As such, all of it may be discounted. One fact is certain, the cyclic breeding of the budgerigar in the bird mill has had an evolutionary effect, it has been positive and the proof is it's continuance. The assertion that a budgerigar from a bird mill is somehow lesser than that from a so-called "breeder" is nonsense. Evidence abounds, I have a budgerigar that easily refutes the notion and others also have relayed positive results albeit that this evidence too is anecdotal. Nevertheless, you must concede that an individual who goes out of their way to purchase a budgerigar from a breeder as opposed to a bird mill is more likely to care for that bird more aggressively than the one that is casually purchased from the mill as a family pet. Nevertheless, and notwithstanding the fact that only a fractional population of budgerigar owners publish here, it is not where you acquired your budgerigar, but how you treat it after it joins your life.

i agree, there is probably no real difference between the two birds.

but personally i prefer to avoid supporting places that treat their birds badly. even "responsible" breeders are contributing to animal overpopulation, and therefore i wouldnt go out of the way to get one from there. adoption is the only real solution in my opinion, because buying an animal takes a home away from an animal that needs one! course so does adoption, but at least you dont support the breeding of more. for non-alive products, pick the best pet shop you can!

as for the "budgies are better off with humans," i dont agree with that, because at least in the wild they are free, and completely protected from any possible cruel conditions caused by bad owners. yes many die in the wild, but at least they had a chance at a life with a huge flock, massive flying space, natural chance to breed as they please, varied diet, nonstop playing, and plenty of scenery changes.

[Flugmeister]

I agree, there is probably no real difference between the two birds, but personally I prefer to avoid supporting places that treat their birds badly. even "responsible" breeders are contributing to animal overpopulation, and therefore i wouldnt go out of the way to get one from there. adoption is the only real solution in my opinion, because buying an animal takes a home away from an animal that needs one! course so does adoption, but at least you dont support the breeding of more. for non-alive products, pick the best pet shop you can!

as for the "budgies are better off with humans," i dont agree with that, because at least in the wild they are free, and completely protected from any possible cruel conditions caused by bad owners. yes many die in the wild, but at least they had a chance at a life with a huge flock, massive flying space, natural chance to breed as they please, varied diet, nonstop playing, and plenty of scenery changes.

I do not have any immediate data on how the bird mills treat their birds, but allow me to point out that if you consume products made with domesticated chicken flesh or other body parts in the US, unless you take pains to see that it is verifiably free range and humanely slaughtered (I don't know if that last phrase is an oxymoron or not), then you are party to far, far worse activity than supporting the mills. I don't really want to get into it, but I mention this because you just can't say "Save the budgies!" in one breath and then be careless with other birds, or animals for that matter, with the other.

I simply accept the fact that we are the dominant species and do as we please, and I please to have a bird. That in itself is not leave to commit atrocities with the bird, or to be cruel and inhumane. My budgerigar is treated like a member of the family, albeit one with special needs (he is a different species, after all), with no more or no less than anyone else in the family. Many would say he lives well and his age certainly supports that notion. I have had people on this list, most likely juveniles, deride the fact that Budgie receives the very best Hartz Mountain seed. He certainly gobbles it up readily and again, his age supports the notion that he is afforded adequate, possibly superior, nutrition. But I digress...

My point is that I don't see how the birds are kept badly and if they are, where is PETA and the ASPCA? I could argue that many, many years ago when I was a serviceman in the US Army I was "treated badly". I was forced to bunk with large numbers of other men in small quarters, I was kept from my family, allowed to visit with my girlfriend on a limited basis, etc., etc., etc. I was, however, well fed, given lots of exercise (desired or not!) and as much water as I cared to drink. I contend that if these budgerigars are mistreated beyond their basic needs, then why have we not seen more civil disobedience on their behalf?

I did not mean to imply that budgerigars are better off with humans in the general sense, only that they have been bred for so long in captivity that their specieistic intelligence is shifting towards human captivity socialism and further away from that of their wild environment. We now start to get into moral, ethical and philosophical arguments that ask whether or not any species has the prerogative to own another, under any circumstance. Are you ready to release your budgerigar now?

[riotfox]

^ lol if i released them they would die. all of the animals already in captivity and unable to be released deserve good homes, of course! i just think people should not breed more into a life of captivity. just like you wouldnt breed a budgie pair that you know has produced feather dusters before.

also im a vegetarian ;).

i just wanted to add just so i dont sound like an aninal rights freak, that i also accept that people arent ever going to stop captive breeding. the pet trade is here to stay, so we will do the best we can, and we may as well enjoy it!

[Flugmeister]

its not letting me edit, but i just wanted to add just so i dont sound like an aninal rights freak, that i also accept that people arent ever going to stop captive breeding. the pet trade is here to stay, so we will do the best we can, and we may as well enjoy it!

There is nothing wrong with being an animal rights freak, in fact, many of them should be more admired than they are for what they do to help animals--who really have no voice in what happens to them. Nevertheless, you are right, we just do the best we can and no, do not release your budgerigars, or other pets for that matter, just love them and treat them as you would want to be treated. That's right, the Golden Rule holds, so simple, so elegant.

[WolfDragon]

I bought my birds from a little independent owned shop because I was afraid of this. Thanks for posting this. Nobody really thinks about other animals having breeder mills. T.T Poor little things!

[Rachel Keeth]

This is why next time I get a budgie I am getting it from a breeder.

[Sweety&Tweety]

Almost all of my birds were adopted because they were no longer wanted. Most have the sweetest personalities and are super smart. Giving them a "second chance" feels so good.

[i love Budgie]

that's horrible

[Zarthga]

PetSmart, thats where I got mine! :budgie:
:D

[Sunny&Snowy]

I bought mine from Pets in the park(though not sure if you have one of those stores there) but you can look in classifide adds, petsmart, and or petco or a local petstore that may have one. Depending on the style you are after I think.

[Heatherskiis]

I got one of mine at petsmart, the other from a breeder. I recomend a breeder.

[AAYLLAA]

My first bird was bought at PJs - never been sick, perfect health, happy bird. Got her as a baby and even though they could not sex her at the store, I'm ecstatic with her. She is now 5 years old and going strong.
My second bird was bought at an independent pet store because my boyfriend has an issue with PJs, PetSmart, etc due to puppy/bird mills. I wish I hadn't listened to him as the bird I got from this "reputable" small place brought Giardia into my house. Needless to say $500 in vet bills and still going... I'm not happy. If I do get another bird, I'm going back to PJs - they were cleaner and better experience overall. Oh, and not to mention they lied horribly about the age of the bird! I asked for a baby, I got an adult (didn't realize this until I got home and gave him a thorough exam of all characteristics).

[riotfox]

^ can i just say that you shouldnt let this experience turn you off independant pet shops? first of all, i doubt it was the shops fault the bird had giardia. as for the lying etc, that doesnt mean that all other pet shops are like that. some are good some are bad. all shops like petsmart use bird mills, no way around that as its in their contract. :(

you could always look for rescues ;). and if not, make sure to do your research on where the birds come from, and how to choose a healthy budgie of the sex and age you are seeking

[AAYLLAA]

That's the thing^^!! I did loads of research before I went out and got the bird. I talked to a lot of people and that place came highly recommended. I sexed the new budgie myself. And as much as I agree with rescues, I wanted a baby so I could bond with it well. Also, I was not prepared to deal with a rescue so it would not be fair to the bird either.
I understand the issue with the mills, all I was saying is that the lesson I learned was the opposite from the general concensus and that based on that I will act accordingly in the future.

[mercutio's_mom]

it sound's like you are already set on where to get your bird. i have to agree that i doubt the pet store knew the bird had giardia and probably the person who was meant to get the bird for you didnt know how to tell if it was a baby or not and just grabbed one. i got my bird from petsmart and had no idea they used puppy mills and bird mills but honestly i cant say it surprises me. i think it's like with anything you buy you just need someone selling who actually knows what they are talking about. maybe before you get your next bird quiz whoever is selling it to you to see that they actually know what you want. i wouldnt blame a whole store because one salesperson didnt research a product before selling.

[riotfox]

^ sorry for the lack of karma :p.

at the risk of sounding rude, i do have to point out that you did not know that he was an adult either, and as the permenant guardian of a budgie you probably need to know just as much a the employee. sometimes it is hard to tell a young bird from an adult an everyone makes mistakes ;).

what i meant by research is more talking to the actual shop about what goes on behind the scenes, such as where they are supplied from :) you may try looking into a different pet shop or breeder, rather than go straight back to petsmart :o

eDiT: let me just clarify also that i absolutely agree that the employee should have known. but to be honest id rather have a dumb employee than a bird mill... or even better, a shop, breeder or rescue which i better than either of those! :D you are of course entitiled to your own decision, and at least if you do adopt a budgie from a chain store, they get out of that place quicker ;)

[AAYLLAA]

Well To be honest I'm not that worried about karma.
And I did know he wasn't a super young one when I got him. Due to his colour it was hard even for my vet to properly determine the age. I did go back to the store and talked to a different guy there and showed him a picture and he said yes, his employee was wrong. Which is fair enough on their side. I will not be getting another bird for a while so all is good. And nice thought riotfox that the bird I take from a bigger store will be getting out of there faster :)
ps it was not petsmart I got my first beauty out of ;)

[Magneeta]

I am glad this post got bumped up, as I have not seen it before.

In my personal opinion, when it comes to animals I usually would go to a breeder directly who I know or can see they are caring and have a clean environment when I go to their home to pick out a pet. That is what I did for most of the dogs and rabbits that I have previously owned.

Sad to say we did not do that with Paco. But as usual I stayed away from the pet stores when getting him. Originally we were going to get canaries and were looking for cages. But most of the cages that were advertised by private owners came with a bird.

The canaries (nightingales) that we planned to get was from a breeder that Ben personally knows, and Ben is very well educated when it comes to canaries. He grew up in Tunisia which has canaries flying all over the place like sparrows fly around where most of you live.

Since this cage was the style he was looking for, for the canaries we had to take the budgie with it. So the plan was to check him out, see how he is, either keep him but buy a new cage for him, or sell him. Well we just fell in love with the little bugger. hehehe He is much more than what we hoped for or even expected.

We finally found a cage big enough for getting him a buddy now and we have the cage we bought with him for the quarantine cage for the new one we get. And I have already found a possible good breeder to buy a new one from.

Being in Sweden and not knowing the language very well has made it a bit more difficult for me to find out the stuff I would have normally done.

When I had rabbits, I went to the 4-H fair, and other rabbit shows, where many breeders come to show their rabbits for awards. I spent hours there, checking out the ones I felt were the most caring, the cleanest, and nice treatment of their rabbits. I made friends with a couple of them. I stayed in contact with one of them, and learned even more about rabbits than I already knew. Found out who the best breeders were in the rabbit association or society in my area, and would only deal with those. I also bought my food from the same place that the good breeders got their food from. I never even bought food from the pet stores. This food was at a special grainery (I don't think that is the right word lol), where they specially made different kinds of pellets, so the one I had was higher in what the rabbits actually needed instead of the crap and fillers they put in pet store and other stores rabbit food.

So I like to go all out for my pets. Even for my cats and dogs in the past I have never bought them that cheap crap. I get the best, even if I don't have a lot of money. In the long run, it saves money to spend a bit extra for their nutrition.

With that in mind, that is why I ask soooo many questions here, because I want to be educated in an area of animals that I am not familiar with....and with the language barrier here, it's hard for me to do a lot of research locally for what I need.

But now I finally found a breeder in Sweden, unfortunately she lives really far away but I am willing to take that long trip to see her if necessary to learn all I can and to get the best for my baby.

I will only use pet stores such as those chains stores like mentioned here for toys, but even then they are so high priced that I usually just go there to get ideas so that I can make them myself. lol Speaking of which that reminds me of another question, so time to stop rambling and start a new thread. hehehe

[Spike&Fluffy]

Wow thank you for that. I agree birds should not be bought from pet stores. So if you do not have a budgie and you are reading this never ever buy your budgie from a pet store. Maybe small family pet stores however huge ones such as PETsMART should not be stimulated to get more birds from bird mills.

[hana0526]

Yeah, I didn't even think about budgies coming from a budgie mill. But also, I've looked for breeders but can't find one nearby.

I know that PetSmart where I am, adopts out kitties. All are from the Humane society. That gives hope that they will for budiges.

[Jobops]

I had a similar backward experience to the one above. My first two birds were from Petco, I didn't know any better and was told they were young. Wasn't until I posted their pictures on this forum that I found out they were adults. By that time, other people had come forward and recommended a bird shop in the next county that only sells birds. I went there and found a beautiful little baby girl whom I named Baci. Well, some of you may be familiar with Baci's story. From scaly face mites to a split keel to 3 rounds of antibiotics followed by a slow death. A horrible experience. I was all set to buy another bird, this time from a well reputed breeder about 40 minutes away, when I found out that the person who first recommended him had 3 of these birds die in a matter of 2 months, all different breeds, from different things, according to the breeder at least.
So I went against all reason and checked out the birds at a few chains. Found a Pet Depot with a huge aviary enclosure (at least 8 feet high and walk in) with some beautiful birds. Haven't had a problem yet with any of the 3 birds bought at the chain stores. I am probably just lucky, but from what I've seen, the smaller stores and breeders pay more attention to the expensive birds they breed, and the budgies are an afterthought. If I buy another budgie, I will go to a breeder who only raises budgies for sure.

[Marsheliah]

My opinion is probably a bit odd, I guess.

First off, I do feel I should explain - there are no pet stores available to me that aren't huge chain stores. Even the chain stores are an hour or two away.

But... Isn't it, in a way, rescuing them, when you buy them from a pet store? Because if they are in bad conditions (pet store), then you take them and give them a good life, that is similar to the principles of rescuing from anywhere. Admittedly, it supports the bird breeders. But can we also deny them a good life?

xP I'm probably looking at this wrong, though.

EDIT - I guess to clarify, I should say that there really is no solution that I see. Unless bird mills stop production, there will always be birds that someone will purchase, even if it's just out of pity. Unless they become illegal, I don't know where it will end.

[LiaH]

I'm always running into that decision with animals. Do you want to support the well cared for budgies that are hand raised and treated well? Of course! But if that means leaving the terrified, unhealthy bird that has been locked in a too-small cage, not interacting with people and eating plain seed... You see my point. I would try to give the bird who needs the most help a better home.
Then the bird could get a second chance for a healthy, happy life, which the breeder budgies already have.

[riotfox]

i dont think thats unreasonable or odd :). personally i think we are far closer to closing them with legislation than with lack of business anyway, especially with the recent attention to puppy mills. i reckon its more important to look for rescues where possible, so that you give someone who needs it a home, without supporting the bird mills ;)

[Shiny Celebi]

I know they say Petsmart is bad but i dont have any other option aound me to purchase birds. I looked and there are no breeders around me. I think there are wonderful birds at Petsmart. I saw them yesterday. They were lively, busy, energetic and healthy. Their cage was clean and they had plenty of food and water. I saw nothing wrong at all, in fact I never have from a Petsmart store.

[atvchick95]

I know they say Petsmart is bad but i dont have any other option aound me to purchase birds. I looked and there are no breeders around me. I think there are wonderful birds at Petsmart. I saw them yesterday. They were lively, busy, energetic and healthy. Their cage was clean and they had plenty of food and water. I saw nothing wrong at all, in fact I never have from a Petsmart store.


most Petsmart's are starting to clean up their act

last time i was in mine They even gave the birds toys and FRUIT! never before did they and they were always in small cramped cages too many birds per cage

but after the outbreak that made all (or almost all) Pet smarts stop selling birds a few years back Mine was the LAST(or so it seems) to start selling again Mine was 2 yrs PAST the date That they stated on their papers and That every one else I talked to around the u.s. that had their pet smart stop selling birds.... I went in the Day after they started selling again and threw a huge fit, Every bird was still sick, If it was scaly face mites it was puffed up watery eyes, most looked like they were on deaths door, Some were on the cage floor barely able to move From being so sick! this was 2 YRS AFTER they dropped the enforcement of no selling birds.. it took our store that long to be allowed to sell again and they were still sick! :mad:

That was a while ago I was in probably 8-9 months ago and saw they were in bigger(not big but bigger) cages, had toys, had fruits, clean bowls fresh food and water

I only have 2 Stores in town that sells birds One being pet Smart one being a private owned (no chain store) If I had to go to a pet store to buy a bird now I would go to pet smart Before I ever stepped foot into the other pet shop - The other one I turn them in about every 2 months and no one will do squat about them Its just totally gross to even walk in the smell of dog poop alone when you open the door is enough to make you puke!

[SusanBudgies]

... That being said, I now buy my birds from a small pet store about an hour away from where I live. ...I purchased my longest-lived budgie (almost 12 years), "Chirpie," from a small pet store. I never took her to the vet. I credit both the store and the fact she ate a wide variety of foods (usually off my plate ;)) with her longevity.

[BUUZBEE]

My opinion is probably a bit odd, I guess.
First off, I do feel I should explain - there are no pet stores available to me that aren't huge chain stores. Even the chain stores are an hour or two away.
But... Isn't it, in a way, rescuing them, when you buy them from a pet store? Because if they are in bad conditions (pet store), then you take them and give them a good life, that is similar to the principles of rescuing from anywhere. Admittedly, it supports the bird breeders. But can we also deny them a good life?
xP I'm probably looking at this wrong, though.
EDIT - I guess to clarify, I should say that there really is no solution that I see. Unless bird mills stop production, there will always be birds that someone will purchase, even if it's just out of pity. Unless they become illegal, I don't know where it will end.
I'm always running into that decision with animals. Do you want to support the well cared for budgies that are hand raised and treated well? Of course! But if that means leaving the terrified, unhealthy bird that has been locked in a too-small cage, not interacting with people and eating plain seed... You see my point. I would try to give the bird who needs the most help a better home.
Then the bird could get a second chance for a healthy, happy life, which the breeder budgies already have.


i dont think thats unreasonable or odd :). personally i think we are far closer to closing them with legislation than with lack of business anyway, especially with the recent attention to puppy mills. i reckon its more important to look for rescues where possible, so that you give someone who needs it a home, without supporting the bird mills ;)

I know they say Petsmart is bad but i dont have any other option aound me to purchase birds. I looked and there are no breeders around me. I think there are wonderful birds at Petsmart. I saw them yesterday. They were lively, busy, energetic and healthy. Their cage was clean and they had plenty of food and water. I saw nothing wrong at all, in fact I never have from a Petsmart store.


As to the posts "I dont have any small pet stores near me, so I have to go to Petsmart" ... chances are, if you have no breeders, rescues or small privatly owned pet stores, then its safe to say you wont find an avain vet close by either. What will be done when the bird becomes ill? Post on the forums, my bird is ill, I dont have a vet... "Help!"???

Supply & Demand: If more people stood their ground and refused to buy birds from the large chain stores, there wouldn't be a demand for them. It would be nice to see more people decide whats more important, the "I want" attitude of wanting the bird, or thinking about horrid conditions that all these birds come from. (Petco no longer sells the big parrots in my area, people were refusing to buy, so they dont carry them anymore. It would be great if NO birds were sold there!)

By "rescuing" the bird from the store... you are not rescuing anything, all you would be doing is opening a spot for the next bird mill bird to fill. again: supply & demand.

Sadly, it seems when it comes to budgies... their price tag is too small and people prefer to have the "I want" attitude. With the big dollar birds, peope have learned to spend wisely and not buy from the chains.

Remember, this article is here to advise... many people have no idea where these birds come from... so if it makes 1/2 the people reading it think about whats important, and REFUSE to give their $ to stores that supply bird mill birds, then its done its job :)

Some bird mills exposed (videos):

YouTube - A Bird Mill Exposed - Part I

YouTube - A Bird Mill Exposed - Part II

Follow up to previous pages of this thread.....I do not have any immediate data on how the bird mills treat their birds, but allow me to point out that if you consume products made with domesticated chicken flesh or other body parts in the US, unless you take pains to see that it is verifiably free range and humanely slaughtered (I don't know if that last phrase is an oxymoron or not), then you are party to far, far worse activity than supporting the mills. I don't really want to get into it, but I mention this because you just can't say "Save the budgies!" in one breath and then be careless with other birds, or animals for that matter, with the other.

I simply accept the fact that we are the dominant species and do as we please, and I please to have a bird. That in itself is not leave to commit atrocities with the bird, or to be cruel and inhumane. My budgerigar is treated like a member of the family, albeit one with special needs (he is a different species, after all), with no more or no less than anyone else in the family. Many would say he lives well and his age certainly supports that notion. I have had people on this list, most likely juveniles, deride the fact that Budgie receives the very best Hartz Mountain seed. He certainly gobbles it up readily and again, his age supports the notion that he is afforded adequate, possibly superior, nutrition. But I digress...

My point is that I don't see how the birds are kept badly and if they are, where is PETA and the ASPCA? I could argue that many, many years ago when I was a serviceman in the US Army I was "treated badly". I was forced to bunk with large numbers of other men in small quarters, I was kept from my family, allowed to visit with my girlfriend on a limited basis, etc., etc., etc. I was, however, well fed, given lots of exercise (desired or not!) and as much water as I cared to drink. I contend that if these budgerigars are mistreated beyond their basic needs, then why have we not seen more civil disobedience on their behalf?

I did not mean to imply that budgerigars are better off with humans in the general sense, only that they have been bred for so long in captivity that their specieistic intelligence is shifting towards human captivity socialism and further away from that of their wild environment. We now start to get into moral, ethical and philosophical arguments that ask whether or not any species has the prerogative to own another, under any circumstance. Are you ready to release your budgerigar now?

Since this thread topic is bird mills, I will not comment on all the off topics that are now in this thread....
point 1, click on the links, there's plenty of data listed.
point 2, As with puppy & kitten mills... most mills are mobile. They are found in the back country. When the aspca finds out their locations, they deal with them. You will see in the attached videos, how they are mobil. They are in trailers. These are just SOME examples. Also remember, that a lot of birds come from brokers (as with the puppy industry) so as someone posted before that the tag said "dragon something" (dont remember the full name) this could very well be the brokers name.

Don't confuse the notion or mechanism of selection with evolution. Certainly a bird mill is unnatural selection, but it is selection and it does follow the rules of evolution. Nevertheless, this is a pointless argument is it not? The bird mills will continue and many, such as myself, will consider getting a bird from them a rescue. Others, such as yourself, will see this as abomination and will only pursue the reputable breeder route insofar as you can validate and verify that the breeder is indeed reputable.

I am more interested now in your assertion that there are always birds in rescues. Seriously and in all candor, where are these rescues? I frankly was not aware there was any such thing and may be able to participate. The only thing worse than denying a budgerigar flight is to torture it further with poor living conditions, caged boredom and disease, or even physical abuse.
Again, the point is supply & demand!
This is simply not true. The number of birds bred and the amount of time bred has ensured a high level of survivability--it is a simple fact of evolution.

No one is going to stop mom and dad from going into Pets-4-All and buying budgies for junior and as such, it will continue. So, why not save a bird by buying one there? The birds saved by caring budgerigar enthusiasts will not in any way promote the practice--there are just too many.
If people stop buying from the large chain stores, the bird mills go out of business... AGAIN, supply & demand! If customers dont demand, no need to supply! Go to small pet stores that purchase stock from local breeders, or buy directly from the breeder. Prices are the same! And FYI... customers stoped buying parrots from the large chains and now they dont sell them... SO IT DOES WORK!
I grouped all "flugmeisters" together as a quote!


Do not buy from places like Petsmart. anywhere with a history of bird cruelty isnt a good idea.
Ive heard buying budgies straight from the breeders is a good idea, but I'll leave the more experienced guys to judge that one :D
It is a better idea, give your money to someone who cares for their birds. BUT DO YOUR HOMEWORK TOO... there are bad breeders out there, their only concern is the $ to be made. So get refrences & if you can talk to their clients!

[LiaH]

I still don't think it's right to leave the sick, petstore bird there to suffer.:( But, I understand your point. And I do have an avian vet nearby.

[BUUZBEE]

I still don't think it's right to leave the sick, petstore bird there to suffer.:( But, I understand your point. And I do have an avian vet nearby.

If you are seeing sick birds at a chain store (any petstore actually!), you should be reporting them, not buying the birds (putting more money in their pockets)

you're lucky you have an avain vet nearby :)

[LiaH]

If the birds at my petstore were sick, I would report it, but the owner tkea good care of tem.:) The petstore I go to is not a chain store either, so this isn't too much of an issue for me, I am just stating my opinion.;)

[riotfox]

to be fair though, being bought is the only way those birds will ever get out of there. otherwise they suffer for life.

i %100 agree that its better not to support these shops or increase demand, but im not going to pretend that there wont be collateral damage.

another thing you can try is talking to managers and demanding that they hand over the sick bird for free so you can save him... wont always work but at least it shows disapproval. if you are up to it, you could even get a petition, facebook page, or a wholr campaign together ;)

[MonicaLeigh]

Oh, wow guys, I didn't even know about budgie mills at all. However, now that I know about them, I can't say I'm too surprised that they exist.

I have been hesitant to buy from PetCo, and I was going to go check out the local bird refuge in a few days, while I buy supplies and such. I think that my first choice would be adopting from a refuge. The nearest breeder is about an hour away, and being without public transportation or a license, it would be difficult for me to get there without my parents' consent- and...I have a feeling they wouldn't be willing to travel to the breeder an hour away and pay ten extra dollars if Petco is twenty minutes away and the birds are cheaper. Sighh. :'(

So my plan is to go to the bird refuge (which has a supply store connected to it, how nice! <3) and see what they have as far as budgies go. I would adopt every single bird I saw if I could, but I don't think I can. ;n;

[summoora]

I was going to buy my first budgie from PetSmart this Sunday, when yesterday I decided to search for a breeder. It's not the easiest thing to do in Arkansas, but I figure I can do some networking. My plan so far is to call an aviary I found online, and then if they don't breed budgies, ask if they know a breeder. If that doesn't work, I'm gonna start calling all the local vets in the phone book. Any other ideas?

[budgieboy97]

I think anyone who is breeding birds for cash is wrong.
These mills make me feel sick and i tell you if i was in there, id open the doors and let them fly free.

You should only buy from a reputable breeder, you should also ask questions to them about their diet and living conditions.
I would only ever buy from a breeder, and mostly in the UK breeders sell budgies to pet stores so its not too worrying but this is disasterous!

It makes me sob inside :(

[summoora]

PETsMART requires that Suppliers must:

Keep each group of birds in separate habitats, clean all habitats regularly and thoroughly disinfect them between groups. Feed all birds a medicated diet for AT LEAST two weeks. That diet includes vitamins and minerals, as well as antibiotics including Doxycycline - a tetracycline medication that, when given for a two week course, is proven by veterinarians to help prevent bacterial infections (if a bird is sick, the longer 45-day course is needed). Once birds reach PETsMART stores, they are quarantined for an additional three days. Ensure all handfed Parrots receive two Polyoma vaccines before they leave the center. The first vaccination is given when chicks are one month old, the second two weeks later. Have a veterinarian on staff to monitor the birds' health and immediately quarantine and treat any birds with potential health issues. Feed all handfed birds around the clock on schedules appropriate for their breed, age and weight. Keep birds at the facility until they are consistently eating pellet food on their own, supplemented still by two hand-feedings per day, and have healthy and stable body weights.

Once chicks arrive at PETsMART stores, associates are trained to continue twice daily hand feedings; until the chicks are weaned or purchased by a customer. Stores train inexperienced customers on care, including how to hand-feed chicks. In addition, customers receive detailed information on bird health and precautions, and must sign documents that commit them to provide proper care. PETsMART believes this helps ensure that it sells birds only to committed, responsible owners, and helps create a stronger bond between owner and pet. Hand-deliver birds to PETsMART stores, in climate-controlled vehicles driven by employees trained in bird care. As an alternative to air delivery, develop a hand delivery route for unweaned chicks that can be handfed as many times as needed during the trip by trained drivers.

[summoora]

I've called both petco and petsmart, and it looks like their birds are around 3 and a half months. The document could be dated. They interact with the birds, but it looks like they don't actually tame them. They just grab them. No stepping up there.

[riotfox]

just wanted to point out a major thing which is lacking in those requirements - adequately sized cages and daily exercise, both which are essential ;)

[BUUZBEE]

PETsMART requires that Suppliers must:

Keep each group of birds in separate habitats, clean all habitats regularly and thoroughly disinfect them between groups. Feed all birds a medicated diet for AT LEAST two weeks. That diet includes vitamins and minerals, as well as antibiotics including Doxycycline - a tetracycline medication that, when given for a two week course, is proven by veterinarians to help prevent bacterial infections (if a bird is sick, the longer 45-day course is needed). Once birds reach PETsMART stores, they are quarantined for an additional three days. Ensure all handfed Parrots receive two Polyoma vaccines before they leave the center. The first vaccination is given when chicks are one month old, the second two weeks later. Have a veterinarian on staff to monitor the birds' health and immediately quarantine and treat any birds with potential health issues. Feed all handfed birds around the clock on schedules appropriate for their breed, age and weight. Keep birds at the facility until they are consistently eating pellet food on their own, supplemented still by two hand-feedings per day, and have healthy and stable body weights.

Once chicks arrive at PETsMART stores, associates are trained to continue twice daily hand feedings; until the chicks are weaned or purchased by a customer. Stores train inexperienced customers on care, including how to hand-feed chicks. In addition, customers receive detailed information on bird health and precautions, and must sign documents that commit them to provide proper care. PETsMART believes this helps ensure that it sells birds only to committed, responsible owners, and helps create a stronger bond between owner and pet. Hand-deliver birds to PETsMART stores, in climate-controlled vehicles driven by employees trained in bird care. As an alternative to air delivery, develop a hand delivery route for unweaned chicks that can be handfed as many times as needed during the trip by trained drivers.

Chain stores can put anything in writing..... its only there to cover their butts if needed.

[furandfeathers]

Chain stores can put anything in writing..... its only there to cover their butts if needed.

I worked in the bird department of Petsmart and I didn't receive one second of training. I was shown how to clean the cages, but in terms of anything else, nothing at all.

[BUUZBEE]

I worked in the bird department of Petsmart and I didn't receive one second of training. I was shown how to clean the cages, but in terms of anything else, nothing at all.

Thank you for posting this! Its always good to hear info from people that have dealt with the chains.

I think its important for all to remember that yes, not all chain stores have uneducated people working for them, and no, not all chain stores will have ill looking birds. In fact the birds normally look very good at the chains. The point of this thread is to educate as to where these budgies came from, and their upbringing. The more we know, the more power we have to change things :)

[tinakhal]

I understand all about animal/bird cruelty, and I totally understand what you're getting at.
But one thing I disagree with;
*Never buy a mass-marketed bird from a chain pet store! These companies will not stop mass-producing and selling birds until it is no longer profitable to do so.

Well, if we listen to that advice, imagine the poor birds themselves! They would just be stuck in a petstore, no one wanting to buy them just because they were mass-marketed!

[BUUZBEE]

I understand all about animal/bird cruelty, and I totally understand what you're getting at.
But one thing I disagree with;
*Never buy a mass-marketed bird from a chain pet store! These companies will not stop mass-producing and selling birds until it is no longer profitable to do so.

Well, if we listen to that advice, imagine the poor birds themselves! They would just be stuck in a petstore, no one wanting to buy them just because they were mass-marketed!

Thats the point... if they dont sell, there wont be a need for more bird mill birds to be bred & sold to the chain stores. SUPPLY & DEMAND!

[Athyx]

Thank you for all the information... I feel slightly sick now because I bought Lorcan from a PetSmart. However I have not had any major problems with him so I guess I'm lucky.

Orion was free from my ex-roommates neighbor who had two breeding budgies and I got Cirrus from a small Ontario pet store chain called Paulmac's. When I questioned them the day that I bought her, they said that the birds came from private breeders and that specific store had never had a bird return for behavioral problems or illness. Probably a lie, since Cirrus came to me with a respiratory infection. However now I'm nervous from buying birds there since I could end up with one of Cirrus' siblings as her mate.

Is there any pet stores out there that are SAFE to buy birds from?

[BUUZBEE]

Thank you for all the information... I feel slightly sick now because I bought Lorcan from a PetSmart. However I have not had any major problems with him so I guess I'm lucky.

Orion was free from my ex-roommates neighbor who had two breeding budgies and I got Cirrus from a small Ontario pet store chain called Paulmac's. When I questioned them the day that I bought her, they said that the birds came from private breeders and that specific store had never had a bird return for behavioral problems or illness. Probably a lie, since Cirrus came to me with a respiratory infection. However now I'm nervous from buying birds there since I could end up with one of Cirrus' siblings as her mate.

Is there any pet stores out there that are SAFE to buy birds from?

Dont be upset that you previously purchased one... just remember it for the future :)
I would look toward small privatly owned pet shops, they usually have reliable breeders that they've been dealing with for a long time... just talk to them, if they are on the up & up, they will have no problem telling you where their stock comes from.
I only just found out that the store I get my supplies from gets their golden conures from my neighbor!!! LOL

[johnford18]

Buuzbee that is so wonderful! And ironic :P

So at least you know who to turn to when you want a golden conure haha :P

I bought my budgie at.. what is that name... Paradise Zoo or Zoo Paradise I can't quite remember. Not sure if they are into the budgie mill, I was lucky that they breed all their birds themselves because the man who runs the store is a bird breeder and expert so I was quite fortunate in that department.

[fly]

Is petco bad...? HELP!!!

[riotfox]

fly, few pet shop selling live animals are going to be caring for all those animals properly, especially a big one like petco, and from what ive heard, they also are bad in the sense of supporting bird mills.

[Yasmin]

Consider adopting budgies from your local animal shelter.

[tracytownsend27]

I feel terrible now. I bought my blue budgie from Petco. I understand about bird mills, and I agree that they are horrible. But maybe trying to get some legislation would be more productive than boycotting pet stores. What about all those budgies that are already born? What would happen to them if someone didn't want them? Idk. And now I am worried about the budgie I bought.

[atvchick95]

I don't know why you all feel bad. As long as the store you bought them from was decent. Don't feel bad. at one point or another ALL birds were bought at pet stores , I have gotten MANY of mine at pet stores and they were all perfectly fine I still own my original Pet shop bird from 4 years ago!

I think all this thread has ever done is make people feel bad and guilty Because of where they purchased their birds from. and That is wrong in so many ways.

ya "adopting" from a Shelter is a great idea FOR the people who have that option Not all Shelters have birds, and MOST Bird rescues make people go through so much red tape its not even worth it in the end!

but people should not be made out to be a bad person because they chose to buy at a pet store- and that is what most of this thread does!

NOT ALL PET SHOPS ARE "BIRD MILLS" either by the way!

[FaeryBee]

I don't know why you all feel bad. As long as the store you bought them from was decent. Don't feel bad. at one point or another ALL birds were bought at pet stores , I have gotten MANY of mine at pet stores and they were all perfectly fine I still own my original Pet shop bird from 4 years ago!

I think all this thread has ever done is make people feel bad and guilty Because of where they purchased their birds from. and That is wrong in so many ways.

ya "adopting" from a Shelter is a great idea FOR the people who have that option Not all Shelters have birds, and MOST Bird rescues make people go through so much red tape its not even worth it in the end!

but people should not be made out to be a bad person because they chose to buy at a pet store- and that is what most of this thread does!

NOT ALL PET SHOPS ARE "BIRD MILLS" either by the way!

I agree with ATV. Not everyone has the option of buying from a breeder or "rescuing" a bird.
No one should have to feel guilty about where they purchase their pet.

[Tapa & Tio]

Consider adopting budgies from your local animal shelter.

Thats a wonderful idea, but really in most cases its just not reasonable. Like ATVchicks said. Most places make you fill out paper work, require you own your own home, make you go to classes, do a home inspection, ten after two months of having the bird they come back and do ANOTHER inspection. Of course you have to fill out paper work to get an interview just to go through that process. I've looked up many places to try to adopt my next budgie, but its not really that reasonable. Plus since I'm not over 21 they wont even consider me. After that I managed to find a dog pound that also deals with birds. They wanted to charge me 30$ just to get the bird! This included none of his toys or food, and they didnt even offer a card board box to bring him home in. In the end I could just buy one for 7$ at my local bird store. I think nobody should feel bad for buying from a pet shop either. They are all giving their birds the best quality of life they can.

[MattiesMommy]

I got my first pair of budgies from petco and a week later one died and so we went back and they said the other one would attack a new bird so we returned it and got two new ones. I was like 8 or 9 at the time and really wanted birds. We had the new birds for a while and then someone said we should just clean the cage outside... well that is not a very good idea just let me tell you. My parakeet got out and ironically flew into the house, but when we took him back to the cage he flew away. We attempted to catch him, but didn't succeed. We than just had the girl (no idea if it was really a girl we just always assumed mine was a boy and my brothers was a girl) and she mostly stayed in my brothers room in her cage. occasionally we would play with her, but not much. She would whistle at me if I whistled first though. I never went into my brothers room so i didn't even know when she died :(. BUT that aside, I wanted to get another bird a few months ago (i was 15 at the tim so 5-6 years later?) and found a local breeder and i must say my standards must be way too high if that place was okay.
He had a large dog kennel with two average (2*1.5*1.5ft) and one "doll sized" (lol thats what i call those pathetic 12"by 10" by 6" budgie cages) budgie cages on it. there was a growling and snarling poodle in the dog kennel as well. In doll sized one there was food bags and extra perches. In one of the bigger ones there was about 15 untamed young parakeets and in the other 8-10 young untamed cockatiels. I never got to see the parents and when i got my bird home and switched him into his cage i was amazed he didnt bite me. He did later though, a lot. It is now 2 1/2 months later and my budgie, Quito :budge: loves playtime, is in love with a guinea pig, and loves his bell toy. I can now get him to step up after he flies laps around in his cage and let him out to play. some days i can pet him and give his back kisses, but most of the time he tries to bite and squawks at me or flies off on his clipped wings. They are unevenly clipped as well (3 on one side, 5 on the other) but are growing back.

All in all i would say the birds i got from the petstores were better taken care of before hand, but Quito :budge: nd i are working hard on becoming friends and he is slowly begining to trust me.
Does anyone know any good breeders in northeast iowa of Budgies and/or cockatiels? I want to get a good bird but the last time i was in Petco and Petsmart (same day, they are across the street from each other) both stores had extremely rude employees that flat out ignored us and then yelled at us. It was the worst customer service ever and i plan to avoid them. Also our petco has not birds now, but the sign says they will be getting more budgies soon. Petsmart had budgies, canaries, and finches, but only one lonely big bird.

[riotfox]

Hi erica! welome to talk budgies.

just wanted to say that whoever told you to clean the cage outside, probably meant to leave the birds inside the house ;).

[MattiesMommy]

Hi erica! welome to talk budgies.

just wanted to say that whoever told you to clean the cage outside, probably meant to leave the birds inside the house ;).

Well, i wasn't the one cleaning the cage. It was my mom, i had an issue with losing them in my room (once i lost my bird and didn't find him until the next morning, he had full flight and was on a clothes rod on my walk in closet) and we had nowhere else to put them so we took them with. Needless to say it was a bad idea, but when we tried to catch him he could fly high above my head. He flew off with a sparrow later in the afternoon and we never saw him again :(

[GoladoonJada]

That is so sad. :(

[Lougirl]

You know, I personally buy from Petco. It's cheap, convenient and I know the pet stores don't have the best birds there, (and yes, I'm aware of the background of most of the poor birdies). However, to me, I feel like it's rescuing them. Plus, I enjoy teaching them to trust people. Sure it's a challenge, but, I kinda like that. :budge:

[louara]

Nothing wrong about buying a budgie from a pet shop. Stores are like anything else, you can have a good experience or a bad one. A well run pet shop with caring experienced employees can be the perfect place to buy a budgie. Same goes for breeders. Some are not that good. The best thing to do is shop around and check for references when using a breeder. A well reputed breeder will have no problem giving you customer references.

[furandfeathers]

You know, I personally buy from Petco. It's cheap, convenient and I know the pet stores don't have the best birds there, (and yes, I'm aware of the background of most of the poor birdies). However, to me, I feel like it's rescuing them. Plus, I enjoy teaching them to trust people. Sure it's a challenge, but, I kinda like that. :budge:

I know it's hard to walk away from an animal in distress in a pet store, but if you buy them, the store will just get another one to replace it with. You just fuel the problem. If the pet store is mistreating the animal, you can report it to the SPCA or your city's bylaw department.

If you want to rescue a budgie, check out your local humane societies, bird rescues and Kijiji. There are often little forgotten ones available.

[Cheryl Hull]

I just purchased my budgies at the beginning of December 3 from Pet Supplies Plus and 1 from Pet Smart. I did my homework first, cost, care, possible special needs, breeders and rescues. I live in a fairly large city. We have many humane societies none of which had budgies. We looked for breeders in our area closest one was two hour drive. And cost three times as much as the pet stores. Because it was hand tamed etc.. I did not know of these bird mills when I purchased my birds. I found a Vet. before purchase so I could take them to them directly after purchase. My birds were happy healthy little birds. The cages they were kept in had toys and ample enough space for the amount of birds they had. They had four very large cages with about six birds each. Non of the birds looked sick or miss treated in any way. I don't regret my purchase. Although it is sad that these bird mills produces these birds in that manner. Fact is not enough people do homework before purchase and even if they did like I did weren't told or don't know. My budgies are healthy and happy. Seems to me that even if you purchase a sick bird it is kind of luck of draw from purchasing from a breeder too.

[louara]

Hi Cheryl,
You are right. It is important to do research before bringing any pet into your home.
Some pet shops are wonderful. If they are run by responsible, caring people, the birds will be healthy and happy. I bought my last 3 budgies from a breeder whom was recommended to me. You should always ask for recommendations before making a purchase from a breeder, if they are reputable, they will not hesitate in giving out references.
I am happy to hear your experience was a positive one :) Your research paid off.

[Cheryl Hull]

I'm glad too. Guess it could have been very sad for the birds, my kids and myself. :)

[Iris_grrl]

Glad it worked out for you and your fids :)

[frenchie]

OMG I was totally unaware of this. I hope none of these places exist in Québec. :mad:

[SkyetheBudgie]

Wow, that seriously sickens me. I wanted to get another budgie to buddy up with my single one I have now, but now I know I don't want to go to PetSmart to get one. Where else is there to get one if it's not from a pet store?:S

[riotfox]

its great that you want to get him a buddy :). in fact i think i just commente on your post in another thread suggesting the very same. check with rescue groups, bird clubs, other animal related businesses, online and in local classifieds to find animals who are either up for adoption, are for sale by someone who is rehoming them, or are for sale by a breeder. make sure if you go with a breeder, however, that you dont end up supporting the very sort of abuse that you are trying to avoid. if none of these turns up anything, you may have to go with a pet shop for your current pet's wellbeing. it isnt worth waiting for a rescue opportunity if your pet is lonely in the meantime.

[Meskhenet]

Thankyou for telling me about this terrible practice! I bought my baby Sonny from pets Paradise in Westfield Carousel (a mall in Perth, Western Australia) and it never occurred that he might have come from a hell-hole like that! I'm going to get a budgie straight from the breeder next time so I can see what conditions they are living in and how well they are cared for. I encourage other people to stop buying animals from pet stores, go to the breeder and look around at how the animals are treated. If the breeder is an a-hole don't get a bird from them because you feel sorry for the bird, it gives them demand and they'll keep doing the horrible things to more birds. Also let your closest animal shelter or the police know.