COPPA Compliance

[Dave]

It has come to my attention that we have some members who are under the age of 13 using our website. I personally do not mind if you're under 13, which is why I have not made this announcement previously. But due to the COPPA laws, anyone under the age of 13 is not permitted to use this website.

A list has been compiled of all members who have underage birthdates listed in their profiles. If you are one of these members, please get in contact with me as soon as possible. Your account will be placed in a special COPPA usergroup, similar to when you have to verify your e-mail address. You won't be banned, but you will no longer be able to post until you turn 13. When you turn 13, get in contact with me again and you will be placed back into the appropriate usergroup.

I'm sure there are others who either have a fake birthdate or the year removed in their profile. These members also need to contact me as soon as possible. Because you have either incomplete or incorrect information in your profile, we do not have your usernames. Therefore I urge you to contact me as soon as possible.

To make this process easier, full birthdates will be required from now on with all profiles. This includes existing accounts with incomplete birthdates listed. If you don't want your age displayed, you can still hide it from public view.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause, but the law requires these changes be made.

To answer the inevitable question: no, nothing has happened to us. I just realized after doing some research we are not fully compliant with COPPA laws. These changes will correct this.

Once again, anyone under the age of 13, please contact me as soon as possible.

For more information, see this page: http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm (http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm).

The application to get consent can be found here: http://talkbudgies.com/application.php (http://talkbudgies.com/application.php)

[Bethany]

oh no...:( Are you serious??:( Im 11, so I guess I wont be able to post after this?
gosh, to admit it...I have tears in my eyes...:(

[Dave]

oh no...:( Are you serious??:( Im 11, so I guess I wont be able to post after this?
gosh, to admit it...I have tears in my eyes...:(
Yes, this is serious. I'm sorry to see a valued member like you go. We hope you'll return when you turn 13.

[tstmard]

There's not anyway parents can give permission? That really stinks to loose some of the young members. Especially Bethany. That totally bums me.:( but I also understand you have to do what you gotta do. Just wish there was a way where they could still be active members.

[AngelWings]

oh no...:( Are you serious??:( Im 11, so I guess I wont be able to post after this?
gosh, to admit it...I have tears in my eyes...:(

Aww Bethany :( we're going to miss you! :( i can't believe you have to go like this :(

[Chicklet]

oh no...:( Are you serious??:( Im 11, so I guess I wont be able to post after this?
gosh, to admit it...I have tears in my eyes...:(

:( i wish you could staay...you have to come back as soon as your 13..no forgetting about us :(:(:(

[Dave]

There is a way anyone under 13 will be able to stay, but it requires paperwork. I'll look into it more.

[tstmard]

There is a way anyone under 13 will be able to stay, but it requires paperwork. I'll look into it more.

Yay. At least there is some hope Bethany and some of the other members who want to stay can.:)

[SusanBudgies]

COPPA is a federal law designed to protect children from predators. Here's the text of the law: http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm.

[Dave]

COPPA is a federal law designed to protect children from predators. Here's the text of the law: http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm.
Ah yes I knew there was something I forgot to put in my post. I'll add that.

[Dave]

There's not anyway parents can give permission? That really stinks to loose some of the young members. Especially Bethany. That totally bums me.:( but I also understand you have to do what you gotta do. Just wish there was a way where they could still be active members.
Yes there is. I still have to figure out the logistics of it though.

[pal0m1n0]

If anyone under the age of thirteen needs to ask a question on the forum would it be permitted to have them email a member with their question who could then post it? It would be a real shame to deprive them of a resource to help look after their budgies.

Maybe you could make a questions@talkbudgies.com and the staff could monitor the email and post the questions.

[pal0m1n0]

I just looked at the text, specifically the does not apply section. I am not 100% convinced that there is a problem. A lot of it has to do with what information is made public, what kind of contact is made via email and there was a bit on non-profit organizations. Could the commission itself provide more clarification on this issue?

[Zeena]

I like Kim's idea as well :) I hope that you figure something out Dave but i'm sure you will.
We have a alot of great members on here that are less than 13, and it would horrible to see them go.
Dave, if you need any help, i'm sure me and the rest of the community will be there to help :)

[Nick]

Dave, as you've already realized, there is indeed a way to allow users under the age of thirteen to participate; and that is to have paperwork on file.

vBulletin includes necessary features to easily comply with COPPA. With the appropriate settings and options configured in the AdminCP, the following happens:
When a user visits the /register.php page, they are first presented with fields to select their birthday. If they are over the age of thirteen, they proceed to the registration form as usual.
However, If they are under the age of thirteen, they are presented with a form they need to print, fill out and mail to you. This form is basically the registration form, but a hard copy. Their parents must give consent that their child may participate and they then mail or fax the form to you.

All during this time, the user is sitting in the COPPA usergroup (which you are already aware of). Once you receive the parental permission form, you can "approve" the member and they are moved to the Registered Users group.

I hope I have been able to provide you with at least some helpful information.
I really wanted to add what I had to say after seeing such a valued member have to leave.

Best regards,
Nick

[ozzie]

Bethany I hope you can stay!!!!

[keet_tweet4]

Noooooooooo.

NOT BETHANY! *commits seppuku*

I like Palomino's idea.

[michiyoLove]

NO!!

My internet is down, anmd now THIS?!?!

My eyes are tearing up :crying: WHY IS LIFE SO HARD? T.T

-sigh- Only one more year until 13 :(

-remembers something-

omg... what if my budgies get ill and I need help o: NO!!!! There are no other people that own birds that I know of!

...I'm a gonner :(

[Dave]

Dave, as you've already realized, there is indeed a way to allow users under the age of thirteen to participate; and that is to have paperwork on file.

vBulletin includes necessary features to easily comply with COPPA. With the appropriate settings and options configured in the AdminCP, the following happens:
When a user visits the /register.php page, they are first presented with fields to select their birthday. If they are over the age of thirteen, they proceed to the registration form as usual.
However, If they are under the age of thirteen, they are presented with a form they need to print, fill out and mail to you. This form is basically the registration form, but a hard copy. Their parents must give consent that their child may participate and they then mail or fax the form to you.

All during this time, the user is sitting in the COPPA usergroup (which you are already aware of). Once you receive the parental permission form, you can "approve" the member and they are moved to the Registered Users group.

I hope I have been able to provide you with at least some helpful information.
I really wanted to add what I had to say after seeing such a valued member have to leave.

Best regards,
NickYes I'm aware of that option. The problem is that then I have to make my address available publicly. Not sure if I want to do that.

I just looked at the text, specifically the does not apply section. I am not 100% convinced that there is a problem. A lot of it has to do with what information is made public, what kind of contact is made via email and there was a bit on non-profit organizations. Could the commission itself provide more clarification on this issue?
The problem arises because we hold their information (e-mail address specifically, and sometimes name and location as well). Public or not, we still have that information.

[pal0m1n0]

From my reading I think the info may be retained for specific reasons but it may not be publicly disclosed to all and sundry. Even so, once the registration is done, do you absolutely have to keep that info?

[Nick]

Yes I'm aware of that option. The problem is that then I have to make my address available publicly. Not sure if I want to do that.


I certainly understand your concern there, Dave.

I'm guessing fax is not a viable option for you?

If your budget allows, you could consider a P.O. box.

I do understand the situation you are in; I am just listing possibilities, although you seem to know your options already.

-

Although this idea may seem extreme, it might be worth considering if providing information to those under the age of thirteen is important to you:
Create a sub-forum where guests/unregistered users (which would be the kids who cannot create an account) can create threads and ask questions. No information will be collected from them.
And members can then reply.

Of course, that particular forum will need to be moderated before threads appear publicly.

I wish you the best of luck in this situation.

Regards,
Nick

[Dave]

From my reading I think the info may be retained for specific reasons but it may not be publicly disclosed to all and sundry. Even so, once the registration is done, do you absolutely have to keep that info?
Well I can't stop anyone from putting in their location or name, and the e-mail address has to stay if they want any kind of e-mails. The IP address is added automatically by the system so there's no way to get rid of that either.

[skthurley]

Oh Dave! Please strongly consider the option that Nick suggested. It would be such a shame for the members under 13 not be able to be a part of the community. This website has been so helpful for many young members to be able to care for their budgies and learn how to better the lives of their pets

[michiyoLove]

-clings on TB- I want to say~~~ D:


I agree w/ Nick & skthuley ^^

[Bethany]

I think Nicks idea is good - even if youngermembers and I cannot be in all the different forums it would be nice if we could still post a little bit:)

Dave, My sister had an account here but lost interest in budgies - I could get her to post for me?:)

[Pippin's mom]

I really hope something can be worked out. It would be sad to see our valued younger members like Bethany not be able to post for TWO years or more...that is a long time.

Is there any way to have a special TB address for receiving parents permission?

[Dave]

I'm thinking about maybe setting up a form that can be filled out online and e-mailed to me.

[atvchick95]

not to be the downer here, BUT even having where the younger members had to print a "application" out and have their parents sign it stating they're allowed - They could fill it all out themselves including their parents signature And say their parents did it

I know i'm not the only person in the world who "forged" their mothers signature (granted my mother knew I did and told me to do it - but still I did it all the time for school things.)

Same thing with an Email option the Child could pretend to be the parent

So doing it like either of the above options, the only way to be 100% sure its a True Adult (parent/guardian etc) is having proof - Copy of a ID/Drivers license just like you have to do when you fill things out (like to be a on a Marlboro mailing list) to prove your the age you need to be.

Couldn't even have where the "parent" put their birthday because Well 90% of kids know their parents birthday, and if they don't they'd just ask and then continue to fill it out their self


Just a thought.

[Dave]

not to be the downer here, BUT even having where the younger members had to print a "application" out and have their parents sign it stating they're allowed - They could fill it all out themselves including their parents signature And say their parents did it

I know i'm not the only person in the world who "forged" their mothers signature (granted my mother knew I did and told me to do it - but still I did it all the time for school things.)

Same thing with an Email option the Child could pretend to be the parent

So doing it like either of the above options, the only way to be 100% sure its a True Adult (parent/guardian etc) is having proof - Copy of a ID/Drivers license just like you have to do when you fill things out (like to be a on a Marlboro mailing list) to prove your the age you need to be.

Couldn't even have where the "parent" put their birthday because Well 90% of kids know their parents birthday, and if they don't they'd just ask and then continue to fill it out their self


Just a thought.
That's true, but if we show a reasonable effort to get parent permission, then we can't be held accountable. As long as we do our part, we should be in compliance.

I think the only true form of acceptable parental consent would be a notorized letter along with driver's license/ID. That couldn't be forged by a kid. But who would want to go through that trouble for an online forum?

[aka.pody]

I think Nicks idea is good - even if youngermembers and I cannot be in all the different forums it would be nice if we could still post a little bit:)

Dave, My sister had an account here but lost interest in budgies - I could get her to post for me?:)

We'll keep our fingers crossed for you. :)

[Babybreau]

I think the only true form of acceptable parental consent would be a notorized letter along with driver's license/ID. That couldn't be forged by a kid. But who would want to go through that trouble for an online forum?

Sad, but true.

To add to what ATV said, who says there aren't already members who have not submitted their true birthdays?
I would hope people on a bird forum would be truthful, but there are always some that aren't.

You would still be in COPPA compliance as long as you "made all reasonable attempts" and thus would not be held accountable.

I think an online form would qualify as this, as long as it had all necessary registration info for parent and child.

I wish you luck in finding a solution.

[Budgietom]

I know i'm not the only person in the world who "forged" their mothers signature.

:o :o :o :o I admit, I've done that before too :o :o :o :o

NO!!

My internet is down, anmd now THIS?!?!

My eyes are tearing up :crying: WHY IS LIFE SO HARD? T.T

-sigh- Only one more year until 13 :(

-remembers something-

omg... what if my budgies get ill and I need help o: NO!!!! There are no other people that own birds that I know of!

...I'm a gonner :(

I am so sorry Victoria :( :( :(

oh no...:( Are you serious??:( Im 11, so I guess I wont be able to post after this?
gosh, to admit it...I have tears in my eyes...:(

I'm so sorry Beth :( I hope something can be worked out. :(

Sad, but true.

To add to what ATV said, who says there aren't already members who have not submitted their true birthdays?

I was wondering the same thing.... How do you know if someone is giving their real age or not? For all we know, Pippin's Mom, ATV and I could all be 10 year olds ;)

I hope something is worked out soon! :( I would hate for all these members to not be able to use the forum anymore :( I know Sophie (Squeak Crumble) is underage too :( I would be DEVASTATED if she left :( :( :(

[Josie]

It's a real shame this has to happen, but hey, the law's the law... :(

I really hope our younger members will return when they're old enough though! We'll miss you so much!

[Squeak_Crumble]

I hope something is worked out soon! :( I would hate for all these members to not be able to use the forum anymore :( I know Sophie (Squeak Crumble) is underage too :( I would be DEVASTATED if she left :( :( :(

Thanks Phillip!!
I know I would hate it if I left. Even though I don't post as much as I used to I still look at all the threads and post questions....
I really hope you can sort this out :)

[Rebeccaveggie]

Thank the lord Im 13. Im so sorry to see valued members go. Oh gosh, this is so miserable.

[absolutangel]

I think one of the things we all need to appreciate is the burden compliance with this sort of thing places on Dave. It is after all a free website and he's providing it for us to all enjoy. It would be sad if we lose the under 13s , and I hope you can find a straightforward answer to the problem but we can't expect Dave to move mountains and shoulder what is really quite a big responsibility just for the love of it.

[fiuza78]

I need to add my two cents here.

First of all, I think before taking any action a lawyer should take a look at this, since it may not fully apply to us. For example, I'm 100% sure this law doesn't exist in Brazil. So would be any problem to have children under 13 from other countries?

Just as an example, sales taxes is also defined in some law, but I don't have to pay for it if I buy from Amazon on their internet web site.

Even though the law is the law, it doesn't apply in some circumstances.

Also, we should take a look at how other major forum's, websites work. For example, Orkut, Myspace, etc. Do they bother about all that paperwork? If they don't, it's probably because it's ok to trust what the user answers when they fill up their profiles.

And for all those under 13, don't despair, Dave will find a way to sort out that paperwork problem. It just take time! Please, don't move them until we know exactly what is the right thing to do!

[tstmard]

Everyone needs to realize Dave has to follow the law. Even while he's researching things out it doesn't give him the liberty of breaking the law by allowing those under 13 to continue posting. I don't know what could happen if he didn't comply with it but it probably wouldn't be something we'd like.

[absolutangel]

I don't think it matters where members are, the site is US based and has to comply with US law. When you sign up for MySpace one of the conditions is that you have to be over 13, certainly that's in the UK terms, and if you lie and they later have reason to believe you are younger they can suspend your account. So no MySpace don't bother with the paperwork, but because officially you can't join if you are under 13.

[atvchick95]

:o :o :o :o I admit, I've done that before too :o :o :o :o



I am so sorry Victoria :( :( :(



I'm so sorry Beth :( I hope something can be worked out. :(



I was wondering the same thing.... How do you know if someone is giving their real age or not? For all we know, Pippin's Mom, ATV and I could all be 10 year olds ;)

I hope something is worked out soon! :( I would hate for all these members to not be able to use the forum anymore :( I know Sophie (Squeak Crumble) is underage too :( I would be DEVASTATED if she left :( :( :(


Man i wish i was 10 yrs old again - Life was so much easier back then of course that was 23 years ago and the world was a better place back then lol

I need to add my two cents here.

First of all, I think before taking any action a lawyer should take a look at this, since it may not fully apply to us. For example, I'm 100% sure this law doesn't exist in Brazil. So would be any problem to have children under 13 from other countries?

Just as an example, sales taxes is also defined in some law, but I don't have to pay for it if I buy from Amazon on their internet web site.

Even though the law is the law, it doesn't apply in some circumstances.

Also, we should take a look at how other major forum's, websites work. For example, Orkut, Myspace, etc. Do they bother about all that paperwork? If they don't, it's probably because it's ok to trust what the user answers when they fill up their profiles.

And for all those under 13, don't despair, Dave will find a way to sort out that paperwork problem. It just take time! Please, don't move them until we know exactly what is the right thing to do!


As for myspace, when they find out some one is under the age they're supposed to be (i think for them its 14 to use it ) they delete the account I went through this with the account I made for my daughter (they never deleted my sons) at the time my daughter was 10, my son was 7 I had it stated plain as day on their profile I (their mother) made the account so they can keep in contact with family members who don't live near us, and that I (their mother) had everything set to private, and I would be the one allowing and not allowing friend request and everything else

they deleted my daughters I Wrote to them and went off on them and said it was sad I couldn't make my children a page to keep in contact with their family living in other states, When i had it put as clearly as I possibly could It was me who made the account to start with

They did end up giving her ,her account back and she's still not 14(she's going on 12 this year) and no one has deleted her since - and they're both still set to private (everything including any pictures I put on) Also I did have to lie about her age, because I put her real birth year in and it said She was too young and wasn't allowed to use it and Wouldn't let me make an account at all, So I put the year to make her 14 - BUT I did this all, she didn't know nothing about it til the next day, I made both my kids a page as a surprise ,while they were in bed.



As for the laws going by where the person using the site lives - Thats not entirely true, Take Craigs list for example it is Based in Californian - Quaker Parrots are outlawed in California - I live in Indiana There are NO restrictions on them here at all, I use the Indiana Part of Craigslist, My ads for Quaker parrots were getting flagged and removed

when I went to the area for discussion and wanted to know why, I was blanetly told because Quaker Parrots are outlawed in Californian the rules apply for California EVEN if you do not live there. I said well that is about stupid since I GOT THEM FROM CRAIGS LIST TO START WITH! In Indiana's Section

and then they proceeded to tell me I have to follow California Rules even know I don't live there.

[fiuza78]

I'm not saying we should break the law, I'm saying we have to make sure we are or not.

Why Amazon doesn't charge me sales tax then? I'm just trying to point out that there are exceptions to the rules. This is very tricky, that's why we need a consultant on the matter.

[absolutangel]

But that was my point earlier, this is a free site and if complying with the law is going to require consultants/lawyers and general jumping through hoops we can't really expect that of Dave. It's a free site and we can't expect Dave to exhuast every route, if he wants to keep life simple and say sorry, no under 13s ultimately that is his choice as any non-compliance and penalties will fall to him.

[louara]

Dave has to comply with the laws,and thank goodness he does! It is a shame that we are going to lose great members,I hope when they turn 13 they do come back. Unfortunatly these laws are in place for a reason,it is to protect us from all those creepy people out there.
I hope you can find a solution Dave,but I trust that you will do what is best for the forum.

[BUUZBEE]

Hopefully you can work it out dave, and i hope the email option helps.

The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act is intended to protect the privacy of children under 13 years old. You have several options that allow you flexibility in complying with this law. Should you choose to prohibit users under 13 from registering you are not to encourage users to lie about their age and you should take action to remove the account of any user found to be under 13. Should you choose to allow users under 13 on your board without permission forms, you must not collect or allow personal information to be posted by those users.

Thats what my forum Admin CP says... I have it set up that any members under 13 are banned, so I don't have to worry about it. If any members let it known they are under 13, they are banned on the spot.

[acudogmama]

I agree that it is a safety issue.

Although i'm sure that most (99%) of the members/users here have no ill-intentions, the fact of the matter is that there are creepy people out there that will go out of their way to search out vulnerable children- even if it is just 1%, it's a valid concern.

Personally i cringe when i see users (not just here at TB, but any forum or board i belong to) posting personal information like their young age. I don't mean to scare anyone, but i think it's easy to forget basic online safety rules, especially on a site like TB where the feeling here is like family. We forget that not only are the regular users that you "know" and trust reading these forums, but any non-registered, or non-posting user can read them as well.

When you post something seemingly innocent about yourself, the facts can add up when someone is purposely searching out info.

I do agree that it would be sad to see some of the younger members go... but those rules are in place for a reason. If something is figured out so that those members can stay, i think that maybe some new forum posting rules need to be put in place.

[Dave]

A couple things:

- I'm going to be honest, I don't agree with this law. This is why I haven't said anything previously. But I was doing some research online and read about other websites being fined or shut down for not complying. I would not want to have to pay fines, and for the sake of all of us, I would not want the site shut down.

- Because our site is on a server located within the US, this law applies to everyone. It doesn't matter where the user is located, it matters where the server is located. And to answer the question I know will be asked, no I won't switch hosts. The hassle simply isn't worth it.

- I (and many other site owners) am not quite sure what would qualify as compliance. I know that our current registration system is quite good at keeping underage users out and is in compliance, but it's the invalid registrations that have gotten me thinking. If a user knowingly puts in an invalid birthdate to bypass our system, and I know that they are under 13, am I still in compliance with the law? I think the kicker is that I am aware they are under 13. That means I need to either get rid of their account or get parental consent.

[Robin's Nest]

I certainly don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but I was wondering this: If a paper system (or pdf via email) permission of some sort was set up - what prevents forged signatures? How would you know that the parental consent was truly by the parents? Ai, yi, yi.....:(

[BUUZBEE]

If a user knowingly puts in an invalid birthdate to bypass our system, and I know that they are under 13, am I still in compliance with the law? I think the kicker is that I am aware they are under 13. That means I need to either get rid of their account or get parental consent.
From what I understand, as long as YOU do your part to require the COPPA be entered, if they lie about their age, you are not held responsible, UNLESS, it is made aware they are underage, and the account is not removed.

I certainly don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but I was wondering this: If a paper system (or pdf via email) permission of some sort was set up - what prevents forged signatures? How would you know that the parental consent was truly by the parents? Ai, yi, yi.....:(

As long as Dave does his part to get the required paperwork, he is not held accountable for the forged documents... This is a reason he will have to find out if emailed forms are accepted.

[absolutangel]

I think the answer is if you are, or become aware, a user is under 13 you then have to take action. The fact they lied initially would be no protection against subsequent discovery of the fact.

As far as parental consent goes, to the best of my knowledge electronic signatures still do not have the same legal standing as a signature on a hard copy letter or fax (don't ask me about scanned copies of a form though!)

[fiuza78]

Well,

I think TalkBudgies is the best forum I have ever been part of. It's full of joy, friendship and full of people that really take their time to help. It's like a big family. And one thing that makes this forum so special is that it's full of kids! I just love to read their simple posts full of joy!

Thanks to all admins to make it run smoothly. I think there is not a better place on the net for a kid to be.

But I have to admit Dave, you have to play on the safe side. But I would really appreciate if you could take some time to find out a way to legally allow children to be part of TB!!! :fingerx:

[Bethany]

Unless during my registration I put in the wrong birth date - I could have sworn I put in 1997 when I registered...And I sure hope I didnt put in the wrong date :upset:

Thanks everyone:) Squeak_Crumble - It would be so sad if you couldnt post either:(

Dave, I dont want have TB shut down or anything, dont put the site in danger to find a way to have younger members stay:):o If it come to that - Id rather wait!(:P)

ATV - you have a good point, I wonder if there is a way to insure the parents get it...:)

And Dave, are you going to disable my posting ability? and when? :)

[Nick]

I need to add my two cents here.

First of all, I think before taking any action a lawyer should take a look at this, since it may not fully apply to us. For example, I'm 100% sure this law doesn't exist in Brazil. So would be any problem to have children under 13 from other countries?

Just as an example, sales taxes is also defined in some law, but I don't have to pay for it if I buy from Amazon on their internet web site.

Even though the law is the law, it doesn't apply in some circumstances.

Also, we should take a look at how other major forum's, websites work. For example, Orkut, Myspace, etc. Do they bother about all that paperwork? If they don't, it's probably because it's ok to trust what the user answers when they fill up their profiles.

And for all those under 13, don't despair, Dave will find a way to sort out that paperwork problem. It just take time! Please, don't move them until we know exactly what is the right thing to do!
How coincidental; I just read this thread, got off the computer, and started reading my issue of PC World magazine that just came in the mail today.

Look what I found:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/nar1122/doc_005.jpg

[Dave]

From what I understand, as long as YOU do your part to require the COPPA be entered, if they lie about their age, you are not held responsible, UNLESS, it is made aware they are underage, and the account is not removed.



As long as Dave does his part to get the required paperwork, he is not held accountable for the forged documents... This is a reason he will have to find out if emailed forms are accepted.
Yes that's where the problem is. Those who are underage who then say, in one form or another, that they are underage, are the ones who need consent.

As far as forgery, as I and a couple other people have said, the only way to be 100% sure a parent gives consent is to have them send a notorized letter along with identification. But who's really going to go through all that hassle just for a forum? As much as I love forums, when I was under 13 even I wouldn't have had my parents do that. And to be honest, they probably would have felt uncomfortable giving away their information as these lawmakers were with kids giving away theirs.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Kids aren't allowed to give away their information, but the parent is required to give theirs away just so the kid can then proceed to give their own away. If that makes any sense... It's just a stupid law. It doesn't make kids any safer since they can easily bypass the system, and it creates a nuisance for the parents and website owners...

[michiyoLove]

Unless during my registration I put in the wrong birth date - I could have sworn I put in 1997 when I registered...And I sure hope I didnt put in the wrong date :upset:

Thanks everyone:) Squeak_Crumble - It would be so sad if you couldnt post either:(

Dave, I dont want have TB shut down or anything, dont put the site in danger to find a way to have younger members stay:):o If it come to that - Id rather wait!(:P)
ATV - you have a good point, I wonder if there is a way to insure the parents get it...:)

And Dave, are you going to disable my posting ability? and when? :)

I agree :)

Hopefully my mom will make an account (unlikely) so then she can post my Bob updates :)

[atvchick95]

How coincidental; I just read this thread, got off the computer, and started reading my issue of PC World magazine that just came in the mail today.

Look what I found:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/nar1122/doc_005.jpg



I don't think its just online, that people have to pay the state they're buying something in - sales tax

when i go to bird fairs in Ohio I have to pay their state tax and I haven't lived in Ohio since 2005


if you ask me , it's all about the money - they'll do anything for a buck

But i do believe most online stores, have you pay your own states tax not the state they're based in.

[keet_tweet4]

This is very sad, but he does need to follow the law.

My birth year is fake in my profile (I'm like 100 or something), as I do not want anyone on these forums knowing my exact age. However, I can guarantee that I am over 13. If Dave wants my real birth year he can PM me. Thanks. :)

[Goldielover]

My age and date of birth are accurate - I don't mind being considered one of the "old dogs" on the forum.:) It will be sad to lose the younger members - I think they have had some valuable input into the forum. Bethany especially seems very mature for her age, and I have trouble sometimes remembering that she is possibly the youngest person here.

[Xealot]

Xealot's Human Pet says:

Sad to see yet another set of legislation which only affects people who are doing the right thing. In a virtual world where anybody can claim virtually anything without requiring proof, why persecute only those who are being honest? Besides, what happened to parents doing their job and supervising their children's internet usage?

[legry]

:(
I hate these people who think we are dumb-brained little kids who give out our information to some creepy guy.
I really hope you can find a way of letting our parents give permission.
I can't belevie some people who are known so well here wont be able to post for TWO YEARS.
7 months is going to seem like forever:(

[oldbonboys]

I hope that we can all find a way to get around this so the younger kids are allowed to post.

At least they are mature enough to be posting on this site which is educational and supports there wholesome activity - why stop them doing this when they could so easily be doing the wrong thing and looking at other less desirable sites.

Good Luck figgering this out.

[ronsig]

If the parents allow their children to be on this site..and what parent wouldn't?, couldn't then the parent create a new account in their name and let their children use it?
My biggest concern is that a child has a sick or injured bird and cannot ask for help and support here:(

Sigrid

[Goldielover]

Xealot's Human Pet says:

Besides, what happened to parents doing their job and supervising their children's internet usage?

Many don't, and many aren't technologically adept enough to, either.:( I have a fourteen year old, and she is well aware that I keep an eye on her on-line activities through reviewing the router logs, and the history when I am maintaining her computer. I've never seen anything I thought was iffy, and she is aware I will be keeping an eye on her for a few years to come. Because she's always been quite responsible I've never gone to the extreme of installing tracking software on her computer, but wouldn't hesitate to if I thought it necessary. We went over what the rules were pretty thoroughly when I first got her a computer and allowed her to have it in her bedroom.

[BUUZBEE]

Xealot's Human Pet says:

Sad to see yet another set of legislation which only affects people who are doing the right thing. In a virtual world where anybody can claim virtually anything without requiring proof, why persecute only those who are being honest? Besides, what happened to parents doing their job and supervising their children's internet usage?

I actually think its a good law. It covers the forum owners butt. Even with "responsible" parents checking where their kids go on the web... they wont be watching whats being typed the whole time they are on the web. So if a parent ok's a kid to go to this forum... there is still the chance of some weirdo pm'ing the child when they know the personal info... anything can happen from then on via pm's. Not to mention when your a member, you can add your aim, yahoo or msn info too!
Simple fact.. its the law. Dave can either allow members under 13 with the correct paperwork, or dont allow kids under 13. Maybe Dave can consider as previously posted, a new sub forum that coppa members can post, as a coppa guest, with post being moderated... maybe add more "mods" that can only mod that forum, so there will be more active members online approving these posts than in regular forums (since there are a lot of times when no staff is on)

[Bethany]

Bethany especially seems very mature for her age, and I have trouble sometimes remembering that she is possibly the youngest person here.


Thanks:o:)

Im different around my friends:P

[keet_tweet4]

Maybe the parent could create their own account and ask all questions about birds from it?

However, the fault with this is a child could create an account and claim to be their parent...

[Bethany]

Am I aloud to post for now? Ive kinda been avoiding posting:P

[Zeena]

Am I aloud to post for now? Ive kinda been avoiding posting:P

Same with my little sister, i have been telling her to not post until we know for sure.
Bethany, i really hope if nothing gets worked out, you come back in 2 years :)

[enicol6]

I think the law is flawed but not wrong. I do feel they should allow for parental consent to override the age factor. The younger members here are quite mature and valuable additions and I would hate to see any of them leave. The site is also so important because the younger members may not have bird savvy parents who can help troubleshoot. Hopefully you can find a way to get parental consent and keep the site and yourself safe as well Dave. Buuzbee had a good idea with having an area that can be accessed by younger members.

I can't remember who posted that the government thinks kids are dumb but the fact is that many young people give out too much information and there are people who prey on that. So they ruin it for everyone else. I know we had 8th graders at my kids school on Myspace that included their name, age, city, school etc. The school went online to check and found multiple accounts so it wasn't just one kid. Parents also don't help out. My computer is in plain site and the kids only have access to approved websites. My oldest is only 10. That does not mean when they go to a friends that that can't be overridden when I am not looking.

I hope it all gets figured out and if any of you have to leave, please don't forget us and come back. It would not be the same without you here :(

[Budgietom]

Just a random suggestion... :o

Couldn't Dave modify accounts for children under 13? So they cannot receive or make PM's, and every post they do make, has to be approved by a moderator?

Probably won't work, but worth a shot :)

[BUUZBEE]

Just a random suggestion... :o

Couldn't Dave modify accounts for children under 13? So they cannot receive or make PM's, and every post they do make, has to be approved by a moderator?

Probably won't work, but worth a shot :)

thats a good idea....
that way any posts with "personal" info wont be approved by the mods. the only problem could be in the case of an emergency, if a mods not on, they wont be seen. i would say the live chat could work for that, but that totally not moderated (besides swear words) so any personal info can be typed there.

[Dave]

Just a random suggestion... :o

Couldn't Dave modify accounts for children under 13? So they cannot receive or make PM's, and every post they do make, has to be approved by a moderator?

Probably won't work, but worth a shot :)
The problem isn't with them giving out information to other members, it has to do with them giving the information to the website and having it stored (profiles). Even if they choose to hide their e-mail address, it's still stored in our database.

[Goldielover]

Wondering if something like GuerrillaMail could be useful here. Temporary e-mail address which expires in less than an hour, so you do not have a valid e-mail address stored on your server. It requires no information to set one up - just a click of a button.

[pal0m1n0]

Never heard of it, but ia it GuerrillaMail.com or GuerrillaMail.com?

[Goldielover]

Here's the link.:)

http://www.guerrillamail.com/

[SusanBudgies]

At the risk of sounding insensitive, I don't see what all the hullabalo is about. Don't these child-members have parents who are involved enough in their children's lives to supervise their Internet surfing? Specifically, are the parents really unwilling to take the time to grant their child access to the parent's TB account long enough to post a question regarding the child's bird? If not, then IMNSHO, those unsupervised children shouldn't be on the Internet at all. After all, protecting the innocent should be paramount (which is why COPPA survived a constitutional challenge).

Secondly, I think we should stop placing the burden on Dave to accommodate the children and place the burden where it really belongs: on the parents.

/soapbox

[Dave]

The form has been set up. Kids, get your parents to fill it out.

http://talkbudgies.com/application.php

[skthurley]

Yay! The younger members can stay!

Thank you sooo much, Dave!

[Bethany]

My mom just read that - I did to:) and filled it out!:D
I cant contain my excitement:P:P
Thanks SO much Dave, you dont know how much this means to me and the rest of us:)

[Dave]

I'm glad you can stay. :P

[legry]

The form has been set up. Kids, get your parents to fill it out.

http://talkbudgies.com/application.php

HOORAAYYYYYYYY
:party2::XD:

[michiyoLove]

Thanks :D I'll get it signed soon :D

[Pippin's mom]

Yea!:party3: Thanks Dave!:)

[louara]

That is great news-welcome back everyone!

[SusanBudgies]

My birth year is fake in my profile (I'm like 100 or something), as I do not want anyone on these forums knowing my exact age. However, I can guarantee that I am over 13. If Dave wants my real birth year he can PM me. Thanks. :)Wow, you look great for your age! :D

Seriously, if you click on User CP and then Edit Your Details, you can use the Privacy drop-down menu to select either "Hide Age and Date of Birth" or "Display Only Day and Month of Birth."

[Budgietom]

Dave, thank you soooo much! :D

I really didn't want to say goodbye to my under 13 year old friends, and I am so glad now I won't have to! :D :D :D

You are the best! :D Have some K ;)

[Will]

I've never heard of this law before. I always wondered why most forums say you cant join unless you're over 13. But alot of forums I'mon allow under 13's. One has lots of young members. even 8 year olds. Oh, but the owner of the forum is in Singapore, so the US law doesnt apply to her.

[BUUZBEE]

The form has been set up. Kids, get your parents to fill it out.

http://talkbudgies.com/application.php

wow... thats good enough, just initials?

[SpickyDavies]

glad you can all stay :D

[Dave]

wow... thats good enough, just initials?
That's the only thing I could think of to replace an acutal signature. I wouldn't ask for any sensitive information like credit card #s because the information wouldn't be transmitted through a secure connection.

[tstmard]

Yay! Glad to hear Dave was able to work things out and the younger members are able to stay.:D
Thanks Dave.

[AnimalLuvr]

Well im 11 im turning 12 next month so i guess u will see me in a year i will miss u.:(

[Budgietom]

Well im 11 im turning 12 next month so i guess u will see me in a year i will miss u.:(

Have you been following the thread? :cool:

It turns out under 13's can stay. They have to print off a form, fill it out and send it in :) You'll find it a few pages back :)

[AnimalLuvr]

yeah i got my mom to fill it out sorry havent logged in 4 a while

[Dave]

Have you been following the thread? :cool:

It turns out under 13's can stay. They have to print off a form, fill it out and send it in :) You'll find it a few pages back :)
No need to print, just fill it out and submit it online. :)

[birdiebuddie]

I know im late on this.....very late....

but here is my thing here....Neopets.

Anyone ever sign up? Im 14 now but i used to have an account when I was like 7, I used my real birthday and wasnt able to go to certain parts like chat rooms...but i never had to do the stuff you are saying we have to do, i just signed up like I was younger and nothing happened....

[Friggin Joe]

I think girls needs protection until they're 25 or so.

[Vickie]

I'm late to this thread, but I'm glad everything worked out and that the younger members can stay. For a few minutes I thought it was just the saddest thing.

I know TB has to comply with the law, but man, what a useless law! It doesn't actually make kids any safer, except by discouraging them from participating in forums. It actually seems to encourage them to fake their age. D: /

I'm really really glad it has worked out though. Some of TB's younger members are respected members of the community, and it would have been a huge loss. Also, as an educational resource for budgie owners, it would be terribly sad if TB could not be there for children with questions about their budgies.

[Goldielover]

I know im late on this.....very late....

but here is my thing here....Neopets.

Anyone ever sign up? Im 14 now but i used to have an account when I was like 7, I used my real birthday and wasnt able to go to certain parts like chat rooms...but i never had to do the stuff you are saying we have to do, i just signed up like I was younger and nothing happened....

COPPA has been around in some form or another since about 2000, and the fact you couldn't access the chat rooms etc. was the way Neopets implemented the COPPA requirements. You could have accessed them if your parents had submitted the form. My daughter, who is now fifteen, has had a Neopets account since she was about eight, and I do recall seeing something about parental permission, but I didn't send it in as I didn't want her participating in chat rooms at that age anyways.

COPPA is a U.S. law, and would be difficult to apply to a site hosted in another country, although a number of other countries have something fairly similar. Neopets is U.S. owned now, so is subject to the COPPA regulations, but was originally a U.K. operation.

[riotfox]

good thing everyone can stay! it would have really been sad to see so many people have to go for such a dumb reason.

[stacey101]

I think girls needs protection until they're 25 or so.

why.....??

[aka.pody]

I think girls needs protection until they're 25 or so.

Spoken like a true gentleman. :)

[Friggin Joe]

why.....??

Well it's just rather silly. Not the protection part, but the fact that most sites enforce this law up front, so people just lie on the age requirement.
And the kind of person who'd prey on younger girls, well I don't think they're any less dangerous at girls 13+. In fact I'd place girls 13-16 in the most danger because at that age they are more likely to get about unsupervised and wind up meeting on of these nutcases.

edit: Age 25 was an intended exaggeration, of course.

[birdiebuddie]

Well it's just rather silly. Not the protection part, but the fact that most sites enforce this law up front, so people just lie on the age requirement.
And the kind of person who'd prey on younger girls, well I don't think they're any less dangerous at girls 13+. In fact I'd place girls 13-16 in the most danger because at that age they are more likely to get about unsupervised and wind up meeting on of these nutcases.

edit: Age 25 was an intended exaggeration, of course.


So sweet Joe, LOL. True, yet blunt and gentlemanly!

[stacey101]

Well it's just rather silly. Not the protection part, but the fact that most sites enforce this law up front, so people just lie on the age requirement.
And the kind of person who'd prey on younger girls, well I don't think they're any less dangerous at girls 13+. In fact I'd place girls 13-16 in the most danger because at that age they are more likely to get about unsupervised and wind up meeting on of these nutcases.

edit: Age 25 was an intended exaggeration, of course.

oh okay :P

[Friggin Joe]

Coppa Cabana.
Whew, finally.
Maybe it's spam, but I've been needing to get that out of my system for days now.

[Budgerigarluv]

(I know I'm going a little off what your talking about now) THANKS DAVE! You don't know how much all this means to everyone! Oh, and I'm sorry my age wasn't real. I just really wanted to help people with their budgies and other birds.

[riotfox]

thats good that you were joking joe lol i thought you were serious.

[Budgerigarluv]

But really, Dave. Thank you.:)

[KatChladek]

There is a way anyone under 13 will be able to stay, but it requires paperwork. I'll look into it more.
I hope it can be done! I've read many of Bethany's posts and it would be a shame for her to go!
Opps! just read the rest of the Thread. Yay! So glad they can stay!

[Bethany]

This is an older(ish) thread :)
But thanks Kat :o