Are worms a problem?

[Tiger]

While we were away for a week, Lucky died. We had left him being looked after, but he had to stay in his cage while nobody was home, while Daisy had the run of the house (and mostly stayed in her favourite place for winter - a sunny bathroom). Lucky just couldn't fly well enough to be left.

Thinking back, it's possible Lucky has never been as well as he should have been. His beak was over-long and because he was heavily clipped on one wing only, he broke the tip off his beak when he took off by accident on his second day with us and crashed into a wall. He also was bleeding slightly from what seemed to be a cut on his chest.

The vet said his beak would be fine, it actually was now the right length. The chest wound should heal, she said, and gave us antibiotics to put in his water. We had to keep him quiet in his cage, which we did. But it seemed his chest wound would keep oozing. He would seem to heal, he'd be fine - then it would look like a little staining on his chest feathers again. But he wouldn't let us look at it, he seemed a bit sensitive.

By this stage he was flying straight despite the badly clipped wing. No more crashes. He would just lose altitude and end up on the floor, trotting around the house looking for someone to lift him up to where he wanted to be.

With no more crashes, and he wasn't picking at his chest (although we thought a re-bleed could have been due to him picking off the scab soon after his injury) we just kept hoping the chest would heal. We also knew it wasn't Daisy attacking him, either. There seemed to be nothing that could be causing any problem, and there was so little marking it was always possible we were mistaken, it was just a mark on his chest or old staining. The vet had said to keep an eye on him but to keep him quiet and he should heal.

He seemed bright, happy and alert a lot of the time but would doze off a lot more than Daisy. Since budgies are said to sleep a lot we just figured he was sleepier because he was younger than Daisy.

When he died, his bird-sitter put him in the freezer. We examined him before we buried him - his chest wound hadn't healed. It hadn't been bleeding, it was just slightly open. He had lost his longer tail feathers too. His weight - he had weighed 32 g two weeks earlier, when he died he weighed 29 g. That could have been within error range or it could have been the fewer tail feathers, or both.

We wanted to replace Lucky as soon as possible because Daisy had already lost one mate and had just begun to enjoy having another friend. There were only two shops. One said they didn't have budgies at the time but might in a few days; and that with our exceptionally cold winter, even budgies indoors were dying, it could well have been the cold especially if he was not as strong as our other budgie.
The other shop (that DID have budgies) said that it was almost certainly worms; budgies die of worms more than of anything else. He was insistent. He said nobody ever worms their birds, and they should. Feeling guilty because I hadn't known this and Daisy had never been wormed, I bought the worming solution he sold us and brought it home with Buddy.

But I haven't been able to verify any of this information. Certainly the vet hadn't said anything about needing to worm Lucky. We were almost due to go back to the vet again for a health check and beak trim - we had planned to on our return from holiday. I would have thought that if worms were such a problem in budgies, surely the vet would have said something?

I followed the instructions and wormed Daisy. The shopkeeper said Buddy had just been wormed, he would need to be done again in two weeks (which will be when Daisy is due for a repeat, now).

Has anyone heard this? And can anyone shed light on this mysterious non-healing tiny wound (for want of a better term)? It sounds terrible, but it was really small and any blood loss would have been less than two drops, over all the time we had him (about 6 months). It was so little that apart from the first incident, we could never be sure if there was even a problem, or if we just had a bird who had some slight pigmentation there.

One more thing - I saw today when Buddy took a bath for the first time - when a budgie baths, even if he submerges he doesn't get soaked through. Lucky used to get absolutely soaking wet and take ages to dry. He was a lutino and I wonder if this also meant he was more vulnerable, not so strong?

Any clues welcome. I want to keep these two birds healthy and happy, but I don't want to put them trough unnecessary chemicals, antibiotics or whatever, not unless they're really needed.

And if the vet missed something obvious and should have said something more, I need to know if we should find a new vet!

[absolutangel]

Sorry for your loss! I don't know what to suggest about the chest wound.

As far as worms go I'm of the understanding that, unless they have actually got worms, giving them wormers can do more harm than good. I have never wormed any of my birds. However I think, from memory of another thread, some people do it when they get new birds as a matter of course. From Chompy's experience with Bubblegum you have to be careful with wormers if they do have worms, it should be done slowly, getting rid of all the worms in one hit can hurt the bird.

[chinchilla]

i don't know about why he died but about worms, most of the information on i've read on worming says they should be wormed at least once every 3 months (though the books were more for breeders) the problem with wormers is that they kill off the natural gut bacteria so the budgies don't absorb as much nutrients from food for a while. if you do worm you can follow up with a probiotic to restore the gut bacteria. worms next to poor nutrition is the biggest killer of cage birds.

[nev90]

Many breeders routinely treat all their birds for worms. Any birds that are underweight certainly need to be treated because worms are the most likely cause. Treating them for worms wont do any harm if they aren't infected as long as they are dosed at the correct rate. One or two birds kept inside are not likely to become infected with worms but any birds that are able to come in contact with wild birds need treating. From your description I think that infection is a more likely cause of the death

[Tiger]

Thanks, Neville.

Not sure about infection - the wound didn't look at all infected, but if it wasn't healing then I was wondering if he was just an unwell bird anyway, not a strong constitution. I looked through our photos and he was sleepy in most of them, while Daisy isn't sleepy in any of them.

Lucky also got a wider variety of food than Daisy, although he wouldn't eat anything other than seed as a rule. Buddy meanwhile has been eating grevillea today and seems to be enjoying it.

Neither Daisy nor Buddy are likely to come into contact with wild birds. We have a lot of wild birds outside though, that they can hear. Buddy wants to go and play, I think. No way - they would beat him up!

Lucky seemed to eat well, but never chewed his cuttlebone. I had a piece of bark in his cage and he chewed that, which I figured could help wear down his beak.
Daisy wears her beak down on the brickwork but she also chews her cuttlebone.

All our birds get green pick and native flowers to play with and chew. Nothing sprayed on them, nothing toxic.

[nev90]

All our birds get green pick and native flowers to play with and chew. Do you wash them? They could have worm spores on them.

[Tiger]

I wash them if they've been anywhere at risk. The plants I pick are mostly low to the ground and the wild lorikeets have enough to eat higher up in the trees. They don't come down that low.

Something I need to check out and watch for is beak and feather disease - wild cockatoos in our area sometimes get this and it's nasty. Always fatal, painful for the bird. I don't know if budgies can get this. I've not seen lorikeets with it, I'm wondering if it's only cockatoos.

[Natalee]

hi tiger

sorry for you loss, i use a worm product called worm out gel every 3 month inside birds and outside birds , the cut on his chest how long was it there for ?
and Yes beak and feather does effect more that cockatoos.

[Tiger]

Tiger's mum here. Lucky got the cut on his chest in the first week. The vet gave us antibiotics and said to dose him for a week and keep him quiet. We did that, but as soon as we let him out again he tried to fly and at some stage we saw a faint trace of fresh blood in his chest.

I went back over photos of him and could see the photos where the slight brown stain was there, and later photos which seemed almost clear. We couldn't easily examine him without us being afraid the struggle would do more damage, so we left him especially if his chest feathers seemed clean.

It was only when we examined him after he died that we found the chest wound was still partly open. Not mucky at all though. But still not good.

Another observation - Buddy loves to bathe. I was drinking out of a cup of water and buddy seemed interested, so I held it for him, He drank a little then climbed right in! So I found a dish for him, poured the water in and Buddy really got in and enjoyed a very splashy bath, ducking his head under, lying on his side and flapping his wings - the whole bit. But afterwards the water just fell off him, a few feathers on his chest were damp on the ends, that's all. Yet when Lucky bathed, he would seem soaked to the skin and looked like a drowned rat. Lucky did preen, but I'm wondering if his oil production was down - maybe another sign of general low condition?

Buddy had another bath today, Tiger sat a dish of water under the play gym and Buddy really loved it (although I wasn't happy about allowing another bath so soon, when it's still very cold here, mid-winter with minimal indoor heating).

We're now realising, we've been on a very steep learning curve.