I have a problem... =(

[Babyluv12]

Ok- well, there's really no easy way of saying this but my Stormy is ill. Nevertheless, I am putting off getting another budgie or any thoughts of breeding until this is resolved, so please disregard any of my posts. I took Stormy in as a "rescue" two and a half years ago. She suffered from a minor case of scaly face mites and was treated (at my expense) and was "big" for her size. I am a bit angry since I took her in and had two different vets tell me there is nothing wrong. Well, I've never really been comfortable with that answer and continued to find my answers by myself. Turns out Stormy is not naturally "big", as she has developed a lump on her chest. After researching the possibilities, I am certain she has either a lipoma, goiter or lastly and least likely a tumor. I can explain why I do not believe at all it is a tumor is needed but for now I'll leave it as that. A lipoma or a goiter are the two most likely scenerios. I am afraid that if I spend more money on vets they will tell me something stupid again. I knew they were wrong all along- I just had a feeling. Now I am at a loss.
I was thinking to put her in a diffrent cage next to the budgies to control what she is eating. With seven it's hard to tell who is eating what all the time. All my birds are on healthy diets of Zupreem pellets, seed, veggies and sometimes fruits and other things. I can't understand how this happen. Otherwise, she is active and loves to play- I just don't think she is getting the most out of her food and it's now showing even more. She is the only one with this problem.
Any advice at all?

[Babyluv12]

Here are two pics of her... :(
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t199/bluegems529/000_1301-3.jpg
Here is where it's really visible- she was a little wet here because I had to wet her chest to see underneath good but you can see where her chest is huge...
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t199/bluegems529/100_1347.jpg

[pal0m1n0]

Since you are from Romania I can see why you would have trouble finding a good avian vet. I doubt there are very many. :( My bird has a goiter but the symptom is her squeeky breathing. If you are sure that it is, iodine supplement would be the answer, but you would have to feed it to her directly to make sure she is getting enough. Do you have an iodine block for your birds? You could, until you are sure, scrape a little off into her food. I use a liquid iodine and give it by beak. You will have to hunt for the right kind and calculate the required amount for her body weight.

Personally, I would think it is more likely that she has a mass. If she does then it will continue to get bigger and kill her, eventually.

If it is a mass, I don't think you should ever breed her. Apparently susceptibility to tumours is an inherited trait and there isn't much point in perpetuating such a bloodline.

[Babyluv12]

Since you are from Romania I can see why you would have trouble finding a good avian vet. I doubt there are very many. :( My bird has a goiter but the symptom is her squeeky breathing. If you are sure that it is, iodine supplement would be the answer, but you would have to feed it to her directly to make sure she is getting enough. Do you have an iodine block for your birds? You could, until you are sure, scrape a little off into her food. I use a liquid iodine and give it by beak. You will have to hunt for the right kind and calculate the required amount for her body weight.

Personally, I would think it is more likely that she has a mass. If she does then it will continue to get bigger and kill her, eventually.

If it is a mass, I don't think you should ever breed her. Apparently susceptibility to tumours is an inherited trait and there isn't much point in perpetuating such a bloodline.

Thanks Pal0m1n0- I am so upset. The thing is I am from Romania, but not there now. I live in Florida..so that makes it worse. Both vets said she is fine. I am going to place her in a separate cage and attempt supplements of iodine..I will have to do some research on exact dosage.

I was never planning to breed her, since I always knew she wasn't fully healthy. I just can't concentrate on breeding or getting another budgie with her like that...

The line that scared me the most is is about it getting bigger and killing her. I'm so scared for her. I really don't think she eats right at all and I gotta see if I can help- I can't let her suffer...even though she plays ALOT and everything I know she's not well..
The reason I didn't think a tumor is what it could be is because under the feathers the tissue is not showing any fatty cells which would be what you would see had it been a tumor. There is no yellow- normal color- slightly darker but normal skin color.. It's very soft to the touch and does not pain her when I check it.

[pal0m1n0]

Don't worry, it won't happen today or tomorrow, it would have to be bigger and you would start to see other signs of trouble before then. :)

Well, if you live in Florida now, it should be easier to find a well qualified avian vet. But don't forget, that when we know our birds well, we are more likely to see subtle signs of illness that are not yet fully manifested. Parents frequently run into that problem taking their children to the doctors. :)

My bird with the goiter also had a lump that was removed and another thing on her wing. Not really sure what it actually was. (by the by, I have to take her in to check for scaly face, now.)

Someone in Florida may know a really good vet to recommend to you.

[Babyluv12]

I found this article...

Probably a lipoma, as budgies are extremely prone to them. They are caused by a high fat diet and lack of good exercise. They are not caused by fatty liver disease, but can occur in conjunction with that disease. They are, in a nutcell, a big cluser of fat cells, and should feel soft and yielding to the touch, rather than hard. Lipomas are often surgically removed even in budgies, as they are in a sort of protective sac that can be excised and removed without a whole lot of trouble, though some can be vascular and more difficult and dangerous to remove, particularly in a small bird. A biopsy of the lump (the vet draws some tissue/fluid out with a needle and tests it for content), would determine pretty much what was going on with it, prior to any surgical intervention. But, only an avian vet should be trusted with this delicate matter, and an 11 year budgie is not a particularly desireable candidate for surgery.



Budgies are also prone to goiter, which effects the thyroid gland. This is caused by a lack of iodine in the diet, and is very curable. Budgies with goiter appear to have a large lump in the high to mid chest region. The goiter is often mistaken for a lipoma. Goiter is highly treatable with injections, if it's severe, or putting Lugol (a form of iodine), 1 drop per 20 mls (6 drops per half cup) in the water, or offering a mineral block with iodine in it. You can order Lugol on line. If a budgie is fed only a plain seed diet, it will almost always develop this disease.



Lastly, your budgie could have a tumor. While lipomas are near the skin surface, a tumor could be deeper. Because of the small budgie body, the tumor, as it grows, presses against other stuff and causes a bulge. If you part the feathers on your bird (wet the area with a squirt of alcohol--it won't hurt the bird, it flattens and separates the feathers so you can see the skin, and dries very quickly), and see, in the area of the lump, very yellow skin, your bird probably has a deep tumor. The yellow skin is compressed fat cells pushing against the epidermis, under pressure from the tumor, deeper inside.



Birds with goiter eventually have breathing problems, as pressure grows on the windpipe from the goiter. Birds with deep tumors often develop lameness, as the tumor begins to press on nerves that feed into the leg. They also, over time, develop liver and kidney problems, and suffer from impaired blood flow (toe infections, etc. develop). Lipomas can interfere with things (they can get quite large), but mostly, they're just unsightly.



None of this sounds very good to you, I'm sure! Put your bird on a good diet with less seed, a quality pellet such as Harrisons Fine or Mash, or Zupreem natural, and dark greens and vegetables (no iceberg lettuce, ever). Golden Feast makes a good keet seed called Basic Keet, with lots of greens and carrots in it--you can order it online. Unless this is a goiter, you won't be able to do too much other than get the bird to lose some weight, and hope the condition doesn't degrade.



Eleven years is a good long time for a budgie to live, and still be so sprite. Your bird seems to have had a good life. Sometimes, stuff just happens. Try to find a vet that does exotics or birds to get a definitive diagnosis. Again, unless the problem is goiter, there won't be a whole lot you can do at this point except work on getting some weight off, and keeping your bird comfortable.

[pal0m1n0]

It sounds good. The advice all sounds good, but don't push a food change. Drastically changing your birds diet could conceivably make things worse. If you try the iodine route, it will take a while to see results, but at least things won't get worse.

How old is Stormy?

[Babyluv12]

My bird with the goiter also had a lump that was removed and another thing on her wing. Not really sure what it actually was. (by the by, I have to take her in to check for scaly face, now.)

Someone in Florida may know a really good vet to recommend to you.

Oh no....is she developing it? I had this problem with Stormy- minor case- vaseline cleared it right up though..Good luck!
Oh- and I hope I can find another vet that doesn't want to charge me $100 just to LOOK at Stormy when I can do that also with the amount of books, articles etc I have read. I am going to separate her tonight when I get home from work..The goiter problem you had..what's best method, shave off some of the iodine block to make sure she eats it? I think she is only eating the seed-and not her food... I kept them on a mix of both pellet and seed plus veggies...:( :( :(

[pal0m1n0]

Only eating millet is not good. I give Pepper diluted liquid iodine by beak. It seems she needs more than the average budgie or she was not eating the iodine block.

Hopefully someone else can offer suggestions about the only eating millet bit.

I will have Pepper treated by the vet and yes I think it is only developing. She really hates being held to take the iodine, and I don't want to put her through being caught to be vaselined as well. Plus she is so squirmy I would probably get it into her mouth or nares.

[Babyluv12]

Awww...Unfortunatly, I became an expert at treating Stormy- I did it with a Qtip. A vet would be the better option in your case though..

It's hard with 7 of them to see who eats what all the time- I watch them ALOT but ..... I only provide millet spray once a month (1 to seven of them) and she doesn't go too crazy over it- I don't know....Everyone else is eating healthy, she just picks what she wants and what she wants is not exactly nutritious..

She is about 4 years old...

[Babyluv12]

Noane else has any other input on this? I really need more opinions..- I've been driving myself crazy here...

[Kerry C]

Well budgies like humans can get goiters, and just like humans the treament is as simple as a bit of iodine in the diet. That is handled by the iodized salt we buy for table use.

The mineral bocks we make containe iodized salt as well as crushed oyster shells for extra calcium. These blocks are not like giving your birds iodized bunny salt wheels as some use to do in the past. Here is the guy we have making our mineral blocks. http://www.mtmcustomwoodworks.com Scroll to the bottom of the list for the Bird Link.

[Babyluv12]

Well budgies like humans can get goiters, and just like humans the treament is as simple as a bit of iodine in the diet. That is handled by the iodized salt we buy for table use.

The mineral bocks we make containe iodized salt as well as crushed oyster shells for extra calcium. These blocks are not like giving your birds iodized bunny salt wheels as some use to do in the past. Here is the guy we have making our mineral blocks. http://www.mtmcustomwoodworks.com Scroll to the bottom of the list for the Bird Link.


They have mineral blocks, cuttle bone...etc and are all on good diets- I just want to know what your opinion is of what it could be...tumor, lipoma or goiter..

[Budgiekin]

It is really difficult to say what the exact problem could be. In my experience with Skyla, surface tumours scab over and proliferate quite quickly so it wouldn't appear to be the case with your little sweety. I would think that if it was an internal tumour, there would be some breathing difficulties. Let's hope this is something that is pretty easily treated, like goiter with iodine supplements. You may wish to consider getting some painkillers like meloxicam if you think your little sweety is in pain at all.

If your sweety's condition is a tumour or goiter, it wouldn't be contagious so you wouldn't necessarily have to separate them (unless the others were bullying her). With Kiwi, he was very ill, but we let him out to play with the others because there was no way he'd pass on what he had to the others (which was an internal mass in his abdomen) and he really enjoyed the company, especially Gracie's.

I'm sorry I don't have more advice to give. It is unfortunate that both vets don't seem to be able to identify the problem. I hope everything is okay. ;)

[Babyluv12]

Thanks- The "lump" has always been there and incresed now to where it's more defined than ever- Everytime I look at her it makes me so sad to see her like that...I know she's happy since she plays and is pretty active but the breathing is getting heavier... Just really concerned. Will try vet # 3 now- hopefully he can help her..

[pal0m1n0]

I hope vet number three is good. If she is starting to have breathing troubles that isn't good.

You budgie could still not be getting enough iodine even if it is well supplied. That is why I have to give Pepper her's by beak.

[Babyluv12]

I hope vet number three is good. If she is starting to have breathing troubles that isn't good.

You budgie could still not be getting enough iodine even if it is well supplied. That is why I have to give Pepper her's by beak.

Vet # 3 sounds a little more caring and concerned but we'll see. I am not exactly full of great experiences with vets but I got to get her some help. She plays ALL the time but breaths heavy when resting and that is not good at all. I got her chest feathers wet per the vet with olive oil and looked at her more careful. I think now it is a fatty tumor. I can't wait to take her in. I have been working about 60 -70 hours a week with overtime so this friday we are going. I am off so I don't have to rush and take her and then run to work..We'll see how it goes.
PS-You have to do it all the time now with Pepper? The liquid one right? I guess some do not absorb it as well as others..

[pal0m1n0]

Yes, I will have to do it, but it is not everyday now. The vet said twice a week but I think it still needs to be more often. I think I will ask about increasing the frequency based on how she sounds.

[Babyluv12]

Yes, I will have to do it, but it is not everyday now. The vet said twice a week but I think it still needs to be more often. I think I will ask about increasing the frequency based on how she sounds.

Is her voice "horse"? When she had the goiter was it one lump like you see on Stormy? I read that it is ussually made up of alot of small ones...? Thanks for helping me through this by the way.

[pal0m1n0]

No she squeeks. No there was no visible lump, She had one a couple of summer's ago but it was a tumour and it was successfully removed. The squeeking started sometime in the past year.

Your welcome. :)

[Babyluv12]

Oh ok..Mine does those angry chirps. Stormy tends to be the bully in the flock sometimes...I guess because she doesn't want to be bothered with the others when she doesn't feel well. :(

[Kerry C]

They have mineral blocks, cuttle bone...etc and are all on good diets- I just want to know what your opinion is of what it could be...tumor, lipoma or goiter..

Just wanted to make a side note here. Not all mineral blocks are made with iodized salt, some are just pretty white plaster. You need to read the ingredients.

As for my opinion of what this is...

#1 I'm not a vet.
#2 No one other than you on this board can touch this bird and feel this lump.
#3 Never having a budgie with a goiter I don’t know what that would even feel like.

I can totally understand your frustrations in vets. :( The only avian vet I know of in FL is Dr. Z. She has treated exhibition budgies belonging to friends of mine. I also post on her bird chat board and love the extra information she has given us to ask our own vets when we are having difficulty.

Karen Zielezienski-Roberts ( DR.Z )
50 North University Drive
Plantation, FL 33324
Phone: 954-473-8090

If that does not help maybe this link will: http://www.aav.org/vet-lookup

:budgie:

[Babyluv12]

Thanks Kerry- I didn't mean to come off that way- just mad...